Tape print through problems

[ev13wt]

I guess this is the correct term?

I have noticed this several times now recording and playing back a couple days later on my r2r. Basically I hear a quiet copy of the start of a track a revolution before it should actually start. It is about 40dB below the signal. (guessing db number here) It's definitely noticeable.

How can I lessen this effect? Am I recording too "hot"? Search says I should use "archive tape"?

Or is this just a fact of tape and I need to deal with it?


Second question: The RS-1506 has very wonky meters. They show input and output levels on the same meter. When recording, I set the highest level to around zero dB while turning down the output completely. Thing is, the noise floor here is still pretty high. I can crank up the levels until they are way in the red without even getting close to distortion.

I am trying to figure out how to set this thing "properly". I do have a average/peak meter unit I could place in line with the deck to show me proper levels. Is there a setting that is "proper" for tape, or do I just "wing it" every time?

I get great recordings, but I want to learn the "proper" level setting way. All my prerecorded tape has more signal to tape hiss levels.

 

[mhardy6647]

I am not familiar with the meter ballistics on the Technics (a wonderful deck, of course) so I cannot recommend how 'hot' to record.

For print-through, I guess the one comment/question is how you store the tapes... for best results tape should be stored slow-wound (i.e., "played") onto a reel; rewinding (or fast-forwarding) a tape onto its 'storage' reel can result in uneven packing, which may exacerbate print-through problems compared to an evenly wound tape pack.

Also, what tape are you using? Thicker is better -- "1 mil" tape (which translates to 1800 feet of tape on a 7" reel or 3600 feet on a 10-1/2" reel) is fine; the 'long play' (0.5 mil) tapes would be more susceptible to print through, I'd think. Fortunately, I don't think you'll find too many 0.5 mil tapes nowadays; natural selection works!

There are real (reel?) experts here; they'll be more helpful, but I figured it was better to light one candle than to curse the darkness ;-)

 

[ev13wt]

In this last case I'm using Maxelll 35-180B. It's at least 30 years old but works fine, no shedding, no dropouts. Recorded on it 3 times. It says 35 microns on the box.

True, I did fast rewind to play it the next day.

I have a brand new RMG LPR 35 that I tried, but it leaves particles on everything, I'd need to clean everything after 10 minutes. Is that normal for new tape? I mean it works fine but the pile of brown dust below the head block makes me wonder. So I went back to the old tapes.

 

[oldvinyldude]

In this last case I'm using Maxelll 35-180B. It's at least 30 years old but works fine, no shedding, no dropouts. Recorded on it 3 times. It says 35 microns on the box.

True, I did fast rewind to play it the next day.

I have a brand new RMG LPR 35 that I tried, but it leaves particles on everything, I'd need to clean everything after 10 minutes. Is that normal for new tape? I mean it works fine but the pile of brown dust below the head block makes me wonder. So I went back to the old tapes.

Your Maxell tape is 1 mil-not known to have excessive print through issues, in my experience.

The accepted solution for pre echo in the industry is to store tapes "tails out". This makes "pre echo" become "post echo", which is usually buried in the background because the music has already started when the echo is added-you can't hear it. You may decide that this is unnecessary for the hassle it takes.

I am surprised to hear about the shed of oxide from your new LPR tape. I would check the alignment of the supply reel to the first guide. If everything appears normal/well aligned, then I would contact the vendor.

 

[mhardy6647]

UD-35 is excellent tape* (and, yes, 1 mil -- thus 3600 feet/"180 minutes" @ 7-1/2 ips, both sides, on a 10-1/2 inch reel); the advice above all sounds god to me (FWIW).

* edit: heh, note my avatar

 

[ev13wt]

Tail out, post echo. This sounds like the way to go! I will test this.

Maybe I got a bad batch tape or something. It's not shedding like old brittle tape, it just a light covering of brown dust on the knobs below and on the surface where it lives. Maybe it will stop doing this once I played it a couple times. I'll report back.

I just recorded one side and am going to leave it tail out until I need it on friday for a whiskey and music session with a friend.

 

[mossfred]

I guess this is the correct term?

I have noticed this several times now recording and playing back a couple days later on my r2r. Basically I hear a quiet copy of the start of a track a revolution before it should actually start. It is about 40dB below the signal. (guessing db number here) It's definitely noticeable.

How can I lessen this effect? Am I recording too "hot"? Search says I should use "archive tape"?

Or is this just a fact of tape and I need to deal with it?


Second question: The RS-1506 has very wonky meters. They show input and output levels on the same meter. When recording, I set the highest level to around zero dB while turning down the output completely. Thing is, the noise floor here is still pretty high. I can crank up the levels until they are way in the red without even getting close to distortion.

I am trying to figure out how to set this thing "properly". I do have a average/peak meter unit I could place in line with the deck to show me proper levels. Is there a setting that is "proper" for tape, or do I just "wing it" every time?

I get great recordings, but I want to learn the "proper" level setting way. All my prerecorded tape has more signal to tape hiss levels.

There is a position on the output control that is the reference level, the 3 0/clock position from memory or number 8 , at that point assuming the deck is set up for the tape you are using the recorded signal should register the same as the output signal.

I have tested my Technics with LPR 35 and if i remember correctly 3% distortion at 400hz is reached at plus 12 vu! So you shouldnt have any problem going over 0vu. Having said that hiss should not really be an evident so there may be other issues at play

All this assumes 7.5 ips speed. These machines will play a prerecorded 3.3/4 speed tape very nicely but they are not really designed for recording at the low speed as the f/r drops off very early and there is more noise.

 

[soundmig]

Print through is present on most analog tape. You can hear it on most LP's that were mastered on analog tape (if your rig has the resolution to pick it up). Considering that these masters used top end analog tape (usually Ampex 456) on 1/2" two track mastering machines running at 30 i.p.s. I don't think one can pin it on the quality of the tape. The most recent example I ran across is on a new 180g LP pressing of Fleetwood Mac's Rumors album. The last song on side one "Songbird" is a quite minimally instrumented song sung by Stevie Nicks. Toward the end of the song she starts a phrase with a high note which she repeats a couple of times. Slightly before each of these phrases you hear the print through on the analog master before she hits the note that starts the phrase. This phenomenon is also pretty common in classical recordings where the master tape is analog. Its the nature of tape … the iron particles are magnetized, so when they are in close proximity to other tape, they print through.

 

[ev13wt]

There is a position on the output control that is the reference level, the 3 0/clock position from memory or number 8 , at that point assuming the deck is set up for the tape you are using the recorded signal should register the same as the output signal.

I have tested my Technics with LPR 35 and if i remember correctly 3% distortion at 400hz is reached at plus 12 vu! So you shouldnt have any problem going over 0vu. Having said that hiss should not really be an evident so there may be other issues at play

All this assumes 7.5 ips speed. These machines will play a prerecorded 3.3/4 speed tape very nicely but they are not really designed for recording at the low speed as the f/r drops off very early and there is more noise.

There is also a little dot on the 3 o'clock position. I guess this shows "nominal output". If I set it to that, it is quite a bit louder compared to the source.

So I will test @ +8 dB. I record at 7.5 or 15 depending on playback intent.

The hiss is normal tape hiss, quieter than your typical tape. It is only noticeable on very quiet passages when listening at a decently loud levels. But I like it.

 

[ev13wt]

Print through is present on most analog tape. You can hear it on most LP's that were mastered on analog tape (if your rig has the resolution to pick it up). Considering that these masters used top end analog tape (usually Ampex 456) on 1/2" two track mastering machines running at 30 i.p.s. I don't think one can pin it on the quality of the tape. The most recent example I ran across is on a new 180g LP pressing of Fleetwood Mac's Rumors album. The last song on side one "Songbird" is a quite minimally instrumented song sung by Stevie Nicks. Toward the end of the song she starts a phrase with a high note which she repeats a couple of times. Slightly before each of these phrases you hear the print through on the analog master before she hits the note that starts the phrase. This phenomenon is also pretty common in classical recordings where the master tape is analog. Its the nature of tape … the iron particles are magnetized, so when they are in close proximity to other tape, they print through.

Thanks for the backgrond info. I'll make sure to listen for it on my LPs.

 

[oldvinyldude]

Thanks for the backgrond info. I'll make sure to listen for it on my LPs.

I just noticed it (pre echo) on a vinyl album mastered in 2014! I doubt it's tape pre echo. Probably groove (pre) echo.

just cant just cant get away from this stuff.....

 

[mossfred]

There is also a little dot on the 3 o'clock position. I guess this shows "nominal output". If I set it to that, it is quite a bit louder compared to the source.

So I will test @ +8 dB. I record at 7.5 or 15 depending on playback intent.

The hiss is normal tape hiss, quieter than your typical tape. It is only noticeable on very quiet passages when listening at a decently loud levels. But I like it.

Thats the correct setting. If the recording is louder than the source then most likely your deck is set up for an older formula of tape. Nevertheless, you should judge your recordings by monitoring at the 3 position and yes dont worry about going over 0db, you can go quite a way over if your finding the quiet passages too hissy in material with large dynamic range

 

[mossfred]

also worth bearing in mind is the Technics meters are not peak reading.
Judge the recording by listening and comparing with the source for any distortion or compression.

 

[restorer-john]

I bet it is analogue tape print through. Probably the last stage was to make an analogue tape for the cutting lathe and that's when it happened.

I just noticed it (pre echo) on a vinyl album mastered in 2014! I doubt it's tape pre echo. Probably groove (pre) echo.

just cant just cant get away from this stuff.....

 

[Chip Chester]

Print-thru is also an unbiased recording, and hence relatively unstable. It will diminish with repeated FF/RWD around the affected area. Not disappear completely, though.

Paper (or plastic) leader tape is usually used to lessen print-thru, when edited tight up to the beginning notes of the tune. Tunes that "sneak in", start softly, etc. present more of a challenge because the subsequent music doesn't mask it.

Higher tape speeds result in the print-thru event being very close in time to the original sound.

Regarding record groove spacing, I believe most mastering setups have a pre-read head that can give advance notice of impending high average level/extreme cutterhead excursion, to allow either the system or operator to adjust groove pitch accordingly.

As folks mentioned above, it really doesn't matter what your meters read as long as distortion is under control. During deck alignment, as new, hotter tape formulations were introduced, meters would be re-adjusted to reflect the "new 0" so long as the underlying electronics would perform at the higher average recording/playback levels.

Chip