Teac X1000 vs Philips N4520 + Techy Questions...

[vf_marshall]

Hi All

I'm new to the Forum - My name's Vic and i've been a big r2r fan since the eighties. My usual machine is one of Philips last 10.5" machines - the N4520. I own two of these beauties, but recently got myself a Teac X1000 (not the reverse model) for comparison. I was expecting the Teac to absolutely blow the Philips away in terms of quality, but hmm, NO! My Teac has little / no head wear and after checking both replay and record azimuth (which needed a very slight tweak) back to back testing reveals the Teac lacking in "sparkle" at the top end. I think the unit needs electical alignment for my tape type (Zonal 675 + Ampex / Quantegy 456). I've downloaded the service manual for the X1000 but i have a few questions which i hope you X1000 experts may be able to help with:

1. Should the X1000 be aligned with a 200nW Tape at NAB EQ?
2. Should my machine produce 0.775v at the output jacks when the meters read 0VU @ 400Hz - it actually produces about 0.3v on a scope / DVM, with the output pot at the CAL mark.

I'm itching to get this machine back on to spec, so any advice would be gratefully recieved.

I also have a wonderful Akai GX650D that's up for grabs if anyone's interested.

 

[goldear]

Welcome to AK. Stick around for a while; we can always use some more R2R nuts around here. :thmbsp:

I have no experience with your Phillips model, as these are extremely rare in the US.

I don't have a Teac Sevice manual in front of me at the moment, but I can tell you for 100% certain the the Teac uses the NAB standard EQ for non-EE tapes. If your phillips uses IEC/CCIR EQ, then tapes made on the Phillips will defintiely sound dull on the Teac. Conversely, tapes that are made on the Teac will also sound Bright on your phillips.

Regarding reference fuxivity: The number 185 keeps popping into my head, but this may or may not be optimal for the Teac. Checking the service manual for one of these will give you all of the specs that you need to allign it correctly.

I hope that this helps a little at least.

Good luck!

 

[vf_marshall]

Hi, thanks for the reply - The Philips uses both NAB / IEC EQ, but only at the 15ips speed. It only uses NAB at the lower speeds. You are right, tapes made on the Philips sound rather lifeless and dull on the Teac. I ran my test tape through the Teac, and the HF response is down by 7db at 5K and progressively gets worse until it's 10db down at 20K. Conversely the low end is up at 100hz by 5db. Not good.
Looks like i need to dig deeper in to this machine. Thanks for your help.

 

[jblmar]

Welcome to AK.
Test both decks with a standard test tape for overall frequency response. From there, you need to check amplifier response. Both Playback and Record.

Ron

 

[ppeterso2]

Teac vs Philips

I have a not so Techy answer:

The Teac X-1000 is a great machine and many people swear by them. However, there are better sounding decks. I am a "sick" Open Reel fan and have owned over 35 or more different decks. Even with Tweaking, some machines sound better: I like the Teac's, but IMHO they have a hard time competing with Sony's 880-s, 765, 766, Philips 4520, 4522, and 7300 models, the ASC 6000 series, Grundigs TS-900's??, Tandberg 10xd and TD-20's, Revox B77,A700, PR99's, Crown's 800 series, Otari's (even in 4 track configuration), and, ironically, the Pioneer RT-909's, and maybe 1 or 2 others. Forget the paper specs--it's what each person's ears like.

I have different machines because they all sound just a little different to me (even after alignment). Having said that, you can adjust your Teac (because they are really easy to adjust and have very good adjustment pots) to sound really, really good.... BUT, it will never touch the super-rare Philips 4520's or 4522's. But it will probably out last the Philips!

I agree with Goldear on the IEC/NAB comparision. All of the X Teacs that I've seen use the NAB EQ. Based on my experience IEC is superior at 15ips. NAB set those EQ constants back in the dark ages when open reel tape wasn't as good as what came along in the 80's (50uS for both 7.5ips and 15ips??!! C'mon What were they thinking......). There are a few decks that have challenged this setting (Tandbergs "SE" mode changes the constants the most radically running udxl tape--using 20uS EQ at 15ips if I remember correctly!!!). The EE decks played with the EQ too, but required special "metal/chromium" tapes. The Pioneer RT-1050 also challenged this by offering the user a choice of an IEC settng at 15 ips to improve the SN Ratio.

 

[vf_marshall]

Thanks for the fantastic replies, feeling right at home with fellow r2r nuts! - I'm delving in to this X1000 tomorrow to see what's up with it. Interesting to read ppeterso's2's thoughts on the N4520. I feel greedy owning two of these rarities, plus a working N7300 which i had from new! The oscillator and 'scope will be out in force tomorrow, i'll post my findings (and maybe some pics of the N4520!) later on.

 

[jblmar]

I'm not familar with the 4520, but from what you say regarding 15 ips, I believe that you have a 1/2 track deck. The Teac is 1/4 track.
Check if the 4520 has a 1/4 track and 1/2 track switch. That may be your problem.

Ron

 

[vf_marshall]

I'm not familar with the 4520, but from what you say regarding 15 ips, I believe that you have a 1/2 track deck. The Teac is 1/4 track.
Check if the 4520 has a 1/4 track and 1/2 track switch. That may be your problem.

Ron

Unfortunately the N4520 is a 4 track "stereo" unit, the more esoteric N4522 had half track woelke heads. Mine is the consumer version. Good point though.

Well i got down to calibrating my "dull & lifeless" X1000 today, it turned out that the Playback eq was miles out (on my MRL tape 10Khz was down almost 8db!). So i lined it up as per the service manual, and rechecked both replay and record azimiuth. I can get the response almost flat (+/- 2db from 30Hz -> 18Khz which should be sufficient.

A quick recording test revealed a wonderful, crisp sound quality - absolutely love the machine now, and tapes made on my other machines sound superb on the Teac. Back to back testing against the N4520 shows very little differences in quality - delighted with that...

 

[jblmar]

That's great news. Now you have decks that are compatable with other properly set decks.
BTW. Where did you get the test tape(s)? They would be great to have when members decks come in for repair.

Ron

 

[vf_marshall]

That's great news. Now you have decks that are compatable with other properly set decks.
BTW. Where did you get the test tape(s)? They would be great to have when members decks come in for repair.

Ron

My Test tape is an MRL one - i believe they are manufactured in the US, JRF magnetics make & distribute them:

http://www.jrfmagnetics.com/index.html?JRF_mainframe=/JRF_calalign.html

Be sure to get the correct EQ and flux level for your machine(s). Cheers for now, Vic.

 

[Lightbulb]

It's good to hear your Teac's performing well! I could name quite a number of niggles with the X-decks having owned a couple from new, but 'lifeless' wasn't one of them. They sit next to my Revoxes and get equal use because they 'feel good'. I hope you enjoy using it as much as I enjoy mine.
Lucien
BTW no, you won't get 0dBu out!

 

[Brian]

I have the Philips 4506 and it does sound closer to my old Revox A-77 and Tandberg 64x than it does to some of the Japanese machines I've tried over the years. You may be experiencing a bit of European vs Japanese voicing difference.

 

[goldear]

I have the Philips 4506 and it does sound closer to my old Revox A-77 and Tandberg 64x than it does to some of the Japanese machines I've tried over the years. You may be experiencing a bit of European vs Japanese voicing difference.

I'm not so shure that I'd go lumping all Japanese decks into the same camp. My Sony's sound much more like my Revoxes or tandbergs than they do like my Teacs.

 

[progdrums]

Heya VF Do you still have the Phillips? The teac needs its electronics upgraded...caps and transistors...

Hi All

I'm new to the Forum - My name's Vic and i've been a big r2r fan since the eighties. My usual machine is one of Philips last 10.5" machines - the N4520. I own two of these beauties, but recently got myself a Teac X1000 (not the reverse model) for comparison. I was expecting the Teac to absolutely blow the Philips away in terms of quality, but hmm, NO! My Teac has little / no head wear and after checking both replay and record azimuth (which needed a very slight tweak) back to back testing reveals the Teac lacking in "sparkle" at the top end. I think the unit needs electical alignment for my tape type (Zonal 675 + Ampex / Quantegy 456). I've downloaded the service manual for the X1000 but i have a few questions which i hope you X1000 experts may be able to help with:

1. Should the X1000 be aligned with a 200nW Tape at NAB EQ?
2. Should my machine produce 0.775v at the output jacks when the meters read 0VU @ 400Hz - it actually produces about 0.3v on a scope / DVM, with the output pot at the CAL mark.

I'm itching to get this machine back on to spec, so any advice would be gratefully recieved.

I also have a wonderful Akai GX650D that's up for grabs if anyone's interested.

 

[SkywaveTDR]

Hi Vf,
Well here is the answer from a Teac Technician. First people tell me their heads are always in good shape with hardly any wear even to the extent that there are open gaps on the heads that have no wear. Unless you are experienced in knowing what heads are suppose to look like it is best to leave the evaluation to the experts. Send me a good picture.
Next as with any tape deck the play section has to be gone through and the specified output level determined to get on a standard playing field. The head azimuth is aligned to an alignment tape not another machine as some are used to doing. You can use either 185, 200 or 250 nWb/M flux density tapes and those levels. The Playback EQ has to be set according to the frequencies on the alignment tape. Once all that is done then the record section can be aligned to the standard playback setup. The record head is aligned so that the phase is in phase with the playback head. The higher the frequency of alignment the better and I sometimes use 24KHz. Many decks I see that have come from the factory are having a bandwidth of 9KHz. I don't know how people could put up with that except that they just do not know and they are fortunate to have a breakdown as the units came out of the Factory Service MUCH better than that. Now that the factory service in Arlington Heights and subsequent shop are closed, I fix equipment at my own location. I have been doing Electronics for 38 years so far.
Often times the manuals say to use a 1KHz or 7KHz tone and maximize level and then over bias by 2 dB. This is an assembly line way to do bias and is most inaccurate. This is what leads to the 9KHz bandwidth when it should be 22 to 23KHz at 0 Vu. Yes, it goes out to 28 to 30 KHz at -20 but who records at that level? No one.
If the deck has real good heads on it and you are using a good tape which I often suggest LPR35, then there is no reason the Teac should be doing a sparkling sounding recording. Of course the speed should be 7.5 IPS and the 3.75 IPS response will be OK but not as good as from the higher speed. Tampering with Bias traps and not having the right equipment to work on decks just makes the job that much worse and even harder to the beginner.
The first piece of equipment needed on any bench is a good dB meter also know as a AC millivolt meter such as the Leader LMV181A. If you are using a DVM or a scope to set dB levels then it will be nothing but difficult.
Your service manual should tell you what the deck should be putting out and that is under the playback section and it is where the specified output level is set and not touched after that. The X1000 may have a -5dB specified level and that is with reference to 0 dB= to .775 V. That means that your 0 VU will be 0 when the output is at the specified position around 2 oclock and it will be putting out -5 dBu. I own one of these machines myself and the X1000 model is better than the X2000 model for a number of technical reasons. If you have further questions I can be reached at skywavebe@sbcglobal.net to answer them directly.

 

[steerpike2]

That Philips N4522 is one of my all-time lust objects! I love all the pre-1980 Philips hi-fi; it just has a design philosophy that is right on target for me. But with the the N4522 they really out-did themselves!

 

[Numone]

Just reviving this thread. Yes, the Philips N4520 and N4522 are lovely R2R however, the X1000 series are easier decks to refurbish, repair and service, primarily due to the availability of parts.