The best Japanese SLT turntables. A comparison.

[Aerobat]

Hi Mark you can clearly see deflection at the very end before it moves back...is that how it suppose to work?...

Yes, at the end of the runout groove there's a sudden change in the angle of the groove, and the tonearm momentarily deflects by a small amount. No deflection is visible in the transition from the music groove to the runout groove.

My point is that tracking angle changes during normal playing or with an out-of-round record are negligible with this table. I'm a linear fan and I like this, along with the lack of skating force.

 

[Aerobat]

ok.....but if you will please explain how this (significantly greater velocity) actually works....there is only one tonearm that i know that *deals* with the eccentricity problem and that is the old Rabco its linear in design is pivoted laterally ...

Lawrence

Most (all?) linear tables have tonearms that pivot laterally.

 

[Dynacophil]

How does it sound?

for me (I was looking for a cheap SLT player for recording to PC) it is very ok.
The player was ~60$, I have 3 carts i can use it with... I found a servicemanual... I can control it blind while recording... it tracks excellent. That AT-Cart has quite low output, thats why I was looking for alternatives.

 

[Professor Bizzt]

Spindle hole off-centering & wow

ok.....but if you will please explain how this (significantly greater velocity) actually works....there is only one tonearm that i know that *deals* with the eccentricity problem and that is the old Rabco its linear in design is pivoted laterally ...

Lawrence

Hello Lawrence,

If we rotate an object at a fixed RPM, say 33 1/3 RPM, and measure the velocity at different points along a radii from the spindle, we will see that as we measure the velocity at points further along the radii away from the spindle, the velocity will be progressively greater.

Please excuse me if I'm getting too elementary, but here is another way to look at this:
Imagine a spinning propeller. Now walk up to it and touch the area near the center hub. It will be rotating slow enough near the center that it is not very uncomfortable to touch it, right?

Now attempt to touch the perimeter of this spinning propeller, it has a LOT higher velocity and is far more dangerous to touch, right?

When we are spinning a record and the spindle hole is off-center, the radius changes in a cyclic manner every 360 degrees, and as we know, radius changes also produce velocity changes. Cyclic velocity changes in turn produce wow.

No alternative tonearm design or anything you do with a tonearm can correct this. You cannot correct spindle hole off-center wow via any means at the tonearm. The problem is inherent to the cyclic radius change and can only be corrected by addressing the off-center hole problem or by periodically changing the platter rotational RPM to compensate (and that would be a bad idea).

So the Rabco or any other tonearm design cannot correct for this form of wow.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

 

[Professor Bizzt]

Tracking error accuracy limitations of SLT turntables

Hi Mark you can clearly see deflection at the very end before it moves back...is that how it suppose to work?...

Hello Sk8ter,

Yes, that is normal for a PL-L1000 or any non air bearing SLT turntable, as there are limitations in the ability of the carriage to keep up with rapidly changing tracking errors.

This characteristic is a non-issue, and does not need to be worried about.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

 

[beveridge2sw]

Hello Lawrence,

If we rotate an object at a fixed RPM, say 33 1/3 RPM, and measure the velocity at different points along a radii from the spindle, we will see that as we measure the velocity at points further along the radii away from the spindle, the velocity will be progressively greater.

Please excuse me if I'm getting too elementary, but here is another way to look at this:
Imagine a spinning propeller. Now walk up to it and touch the area near the center hub. It will be rotating slow enough near the center that it is not very uncomfortable to touch it, right?

Now attempt to touch the perimeter of this spinning propeller, it has a LOT higher velocity and is far more dangerous to touch, right?

When we are spinning a record and the spindle hole is off-center, the radius changes in a cyclic manner every 360 degrees, and as we know, radius changes also produce velocity changes. Cyclic velocity changes in turn produce wow.

No alternative tonearm design or anything you do with a tonearm can correct this. You cannot correct spindle hole off-center wow via any means at the tonearm. The problem is inherent to the cyclic radius change and can only be corrected by addressing the off-center hole problem or by periodically changing the platter rotational RPM to compensate (and that would be a bad idea).

So the Rabco or any other tonearm design cannot correct for this form of wow.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

excuse for my ignorance but how does this pertain to your rectangular counter weight?...I do not see where you are going with this...please explain.

 

[beveridge2sw]

Hello Sk8ter,

Yes, that is normal for a PL-L1000 or any non air bearing SLT turntable, as there are limitations in the ability of the carriage to keep up with rapidly changing tracking errors.

This characteristic is a non-issue, and does not need to be worried about.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

I guess I will be reading up on the design notes...to better understand this

 

[Professor Bizzt]

excuse for my ignorance but how does this pertain to your rectangular counter weight?...I do not see where you are going with this...please explain.

Hello beveridge2sw,

This has absolutely nothing to do with my counterweight mod....

The only place I am going with this is doing my best to answer a question properly and thoroughly that was asked.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

 

[beveridge2sw]

sorry about that

I have been reading WAY too much stuff about everything..that i totally misunderstood you....my apologizes

however many questions...but I have more...I need to contact you offline for a very special project......

can I call you? if so pm me your number


Lawrence

 

[theophile]

I find it interesting that the buyer of the SONY PS-X800 has left no feedback for the sale.Nor has the seller.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...=true&rt=nc&si=S19H1HGoNOhiTWJQuycYe25HAVo%3D

Click on the seller's feedback and you will find no record of the auction.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...erid=woundedtoe&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true

I smell a rat.This supposed auction with an end value of almost $3400 never gets a rating?

According to eBay,he has only sold one item in the last month.No mention of the SONY.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=woundedtoe&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

I doubt greatly that the auction is an indication of the market valuation of these turntables at all.The SONY still rates as a fine linear tracker.By all accounts one of the best linears released,probably only pipped at the post by the Yamaha PX-1.

 

[Sk8ter]

I find it interesting that the buyer of the SONY PS-X800 has left no feedback for the sale.Nor has the seller.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...=true&rt=nc&si=S19H1HGoNOhiTWJQuycYe25HAVo%3D

Click on the seller's feedback and you will find no record of the auction.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...erid=woundedtoe&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true

I smell a rat.This supposed auction with an end value of almost $3400 never gets a rating?

According to eBay,he has only sold one item in the last month.No mention of the SONY.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=woundedtoe&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

I doubt greatly that the auction is an indication of the market valuation of these turntables at all.The SONY still rates as a fine linear tracker.By all accounts one of the best linears released,probably only pipped at the post by the Yamaha PX-1.

Agreed...when I saw that auction........I knew it was bogus!...lol


Cheers!

Lawrence

 

[drtool]

A used PS-X800 just sold for over 1k. No feedback yet. Hope it gets to the new owner safe.

When I was TT shopping in 1983 nothing beat the Sony (PS-X800). My 2 test Lp's were the 1812 and Ricky Lee Jones first album.

 

[Pio1980]

The PS-X800 is dauntingly complex, the RLJ debut indeed a stunning achievement. Photo courtesy of Professor Bizzt, from his archives at The Vinyl Engine

 

[Sk8ter]

OK Aerobat.

If anyone else wants these, please let me know via a private message (I'd hate to see this thread cluttered up with superfluous chit chat) here at AK, and if I get enough interest, I'll place the order.

I've been meaning to do this, and give my machinist several tonearm counterweight mod orders as well. It just takes money!


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

Hello Allen, I sent you an email regarding these washers..can you please respond...

Lawrence

 

[persil]

Slightly OT but I have just spent an hour reading thru this thread, now I must say that I have never owned or had experience with these high end Jap. SLTs. I have owned other SLT TTs by Revox and B & O capable of producing fine music, I was also very Lucky to have had the use of a Vyger Atlantic TT fitted with a Vision Air operated SLT.for a year. I had great fun with that thing! I totally understand the benifits that are gained by using SLT arms, the Vyger combination is rated as one of the very best (and rightly so) but I was constantly bugged with one problem after another which took away some of the advantages of the SLT arms. By what I have read in this thread the Jap models you talk about all use some sort of power to actually get the arms to track? I would presume that the drive systems used must add noise? and as the servo is running behind the arm position all the time it also adds some (if minute) tracking distortion?
What I am trying to understand is just why these TTs are so well rated (and relatively expensive!) by you guys? Myself I lived with both the Revox and B & O TTs untill keeping them working became so time consuming that I really lost the enjoyment of actually using them! The Vyger was different, it had to go back to its owner and I could not afford (or justify) the $40.000. to buy my own Atlantic! Even so the Vision arm had its problems, it had to be set up precisely and kept spotlessly clean! I went back to a compromise, a lesser Vyger TT with a 12inch SME arm (312s) and allthough you sometimes notice its a pivoted arm (only sometimes!) once set up it just continues to operate as it should allowing me to enjoy the music

Please, I am in no way knocking the high end Jap SLTs you guys own and love (I have no experience of them) but I really want to understand what makes them so special to you all?

 

[Aerobat]

The well made ones discussed in this thread are pretty trouble-free with basic maintenance and proper setup (once restored, bit that's same for any vintage table). They have their quirks, like the PL-L1000 which demands to be perfectly level and have perfectly clean rails. No biggie.

PL-L1000 also uses magnetic repulsion to drive the tonearm, and obviously it's a very quiet drive system.

I have a Mitsu LT-30 that uses the more traditional cable and pulley with a worm gear, but it's silent as well. I find that many cheaper Technics LTs have annoying arm drive noise.

As far as tracking error goes, it's minute and usually not even visible. At their worst, LTs have lower errorr than any pivoting arm. And they lack skating force and the need for antiskate correction, which is never exact.

I'm not saying LTs are necessarily better, but I am saying they are good tables and are interesting to use and maintain. I have pivoting arm tables as well, and I was listing two of them last night and enjoying them very much.

 

[dlaloum]

I've never found my Revox B795 to require anything....

Sure changing/aligning cartridges is a PITA - but once done it is the easiest table to use that I have had.

In the 20+ years I've owned it, it has never needed any work done on it, and still works perfectly now.

I did do a minor clean and re-align about 6 months ago - first time in its life!

Perhaps you had one of the very early B790's ? But the later ones and the B795 and on from there have all had a reputation for bulletproof reliability. (very much a Revox tradition)

bye for now

David

 

[pfcs49]

B&O-takes a licking and still ticking

"Myself I lived with both the Revox and B & O TTs untill keeping them working became so time consuming that I really lost the enjoyment of actually using them!"
I don't know what B&O was a problem for you, but my experience with 8002s has been totally opposite (after I re-capped and did a mechanical "tuneup" both). They have performed without a glitch for four years of heavy service
All the AK buzz about Yamaha PX-2s led me to get (and service) one as well.
With both set up in my main system, the 8002 is my "go-to" TT, although I "think" the PX-2 sounds slightly better-the 8002 is so much easier to use.
I know this is off topic in a way, but to my thinking, the B&O 8000/8002s deserve inclusion in this discussion with geography being their only apology.

 

[dlaloum]

Ditto for the Revox...

There just aren't that many LT TT's out there.

I sort of feel the topic of this thread to be "mass produced LT TT's" as opposed to the boutique LT arms - which can still be found today.

And really the list of LT TT's is dominated by the Japs - who were dominating the market at the time....
I remember drooling :drool: at the B&O's in the 80's - beautiful look and beautiful sound.... but I ended up choosing the more industrial Revox.

A biotracer linear sony would sorely tempt me too.....

bye for now

David

 

[Pio1980]

My reworked PL-L1000 is my first servo-powered 'serious' LT, I've played with Technics SL-10 and SL-7 and owned and used a non-servo Souther SLA-3 LT arm since 1984.
The Technics worked OK, the SL-7 better and smoother than the SL-10 and the Souther faultless when the rails and rollers are clean. The PL-L1000 so far a joy to use but with the caution that without record sensing it will play the mat with careless operation. The jog wheel is something else, what a convenience for servo-cueing.