The Brush on Pickering and Stanton carts

[outlawmws]

SNIP

This really is a fun site: this is stuff I never thought I'd be talking about again, almost 30 years after having the Pickering pamphlet produced. Hope it serves AK readers well.

Any chance you still have a copy and could scan and post it? I'm sure those of us that never saw it would enjoy seeing it.

 

[Wornears]

"What I'll say in the company's defense though, is that the difference between Pickering/Stanton and other companies I've worked for is this: many of the decisions made at Pickering/Stanton were silly and stupid. Many of the decisions and directives done at the other companies I've worked for were vicious and personal."

You've essentially defined about 98% of American corporate culture with that description.

(User of 681EEE -- with brush -- since 1977.)

 

[Stanton681EEES]

That is a legit Stanton stylus (with a "Q" designation, and not an "SQ"), but it was for a model that was far from the best Stanton offered, and should be used at a tracking force of 2 1/2 to 3 grams (that's "net," meaning that you have to set the arm for 3 1/2 or 4 grams if you use the Longhair Brush). That may sound horribly high, but due to the shape of the stylus (the company's "Quadrahedron"), tracking force is spread over a much, much larger area of the groove wall, and actually results in less "net" tracking force than when using an elliptical stylus at 1 1/2 grams. (I posted a thread on this subject matter today about differing stylus shapes that you may find interesting.)

The best Quadrahedron tip of any Pickering or Stanton model was the one for the Pickering XUV-4500Q, but it won't work in your 681 body. As it's all but impossible to find anyway, I guess that's a moot point.

Looking at the Stanton booklet as to tracking force they list it at 2 Grams +or- 1/2 gram I used mine with brush at around 2 1/4 grams meaning I set my arm at 3 1/4. With out brush I tracked it at just a hair over 2 Grams.
I have a question for you what is the diffrence between a Stanton 500 EE the one that uses the D5100e or D5100EE stylus vs the Stanton 500EEMKII The one that I beleive uses the D50E stylus.
Thanks

 

[cfoster]

I'm not so sure that I would trust anything that Ed Saunders says. The "Q" stylus I bought was from him and he claimed it was for the 681 body. Thanks for explaining what I have and why it sounds so terrible. For fun, I tried a stylus for a 680 in my 681 and it sounds really good and is a lot less expensive too :yes: Thanks again to you all.

Clyde

 

[emaidel]

what is the diffrence between a Stanton 500 EE the one that uses the D5100e or D5100EE stylus vs the Stanton 500EEMKII The one that I beleive uses the D50E stylus.
Thanks

I really don't know, but I suspect the answer is, "very little."

 

[emaidel]

For fun, I tried a stylus for a 680 in my 681 and it sounds really good and is a lot less expensive too Clyde

There's a good reason that stylus sounds as good as it does: it's exactly the same thing! The 680EE is nothing other than an uncalibrated 681EEE. It was one of Stanton's best-kept secrets, and far and away the best value in the line.

 

[emaidel]

Any chance you still have a copy and could scan and post it? I'm sure those of us that never saw it would enjoy seeing it.

Sorry, but no, I don't have a copy of it. I remember some of the "Do's" however:

1.) Will help keep a clean record clean
2.) Dynamically stabilizes tonearm (for playing of warped records)
3.) Reduces low frequency resonance
4.) Reduces static electricity charges (shunts them to ground)

Only two "Don't's" that I recall:

1.) Won't clean a dirty record
2.) Won't interfere with tracking (provided user sets tracking force and anti skating for one gram higher than desired to offset weight of brush assembly.)

 

[ToTo Man]

i may be making a complete fool of myself here, but if one of the reasons of the brush is to collect surface static and dust, should it not be located behind the stylus instead of infront of it, so that it collects the dust and static before the stylus plays that part of the vinyl??

 

[emaidel]

should it not be located behind the stylus instead of infront of it, so that it collects the dust and static before the stylus plays that part of the vinyl??

As the brush (either the Pickering or Stanton version) is located off to the side of the cartridge, it already does collect dust prior to the stylus playing that portion of the record.

 

[ToTo Man]

ah, i see, so even if the brush is in front it is covering a wider horizontal area than the needle, like in the following pic?

 

[emaidel]

It is in front of, and to the side of the postioning of the stylus.

 

[Stanton681EEES]

I'm not so sure that I would trust anything that Ed Saunders says. The "Q" stylus I bought was from him and he claimed it was for the 681 body. Thanks for explaining what I have and why it sounds so terrible. For fun, I tried a stylus for a 680 in my 681 and it sounds really good and is a lot less expensive too :yes: Thanks again to you all.

Clyde

Do you have the same stylus as in the link I posted? Mine sounds great lots of detail, if it wasn't such a pain i guess i should do a critical side by side comparison of the Q vs Stereodrhon and see which sounds better. Only gripe I ever had with Ed and it was minor was over an Ortofon stylus but he took care of it in a timely manner plus refunded my postage. I just wish i'd of had the two Empire catrtidges i have now when he was selling all those Empire styluses last summer.

 

[ToTo Man]

It is in front of, and to the side of the postioning of the stylus.

right, i get it now :thmbsp:

 

[emaidel]

i guess i should do a critical side by side comparison of the Q vs Stereodrhon and see which sounds better. QUOTE]

The Quadrahedron ("Q") stylus you have works in the 681 body because both were moving iron designs. The body for the 780Q cartrdige was quite different from your 681 body, as it had to reproduce frequencies as high as 40,000HZ. The "Q" stylus in it was a fairly heavy tracker, though that didn't matter much, as I explained previously.

The Stereohedron stylus is of a much lighter mass design, and is capable of tracking at 1 gram without difficulty. It's also a far better match with your 681 body than the "Q" stylus, for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with the shape of the tip of the diamond.

Walter Stanton rarely ever admitted that anything his companies made was less than perfect, but in the case of the early Stanton and Pickering Quadrahedron equipped models, he agreed that both were "lousy products."

So, you are using the stylus from one of his "lousy products" in the body of one of his best. Need I say more?

 

[Doug G.]

Hmmm. When I use a "Q" stylus in my 681 body, it seems to sound fine too. Maybe old Walt was wrong :^)

Doug

 

[cfoster]

Do you have the same stylus as in the link I posted? Mine sounds great lots of detail, if it wasn't such a pain i guess i should do a critical side by side comparison of the Q vs Stereodrhon and see which sounds better. Only gripe I ever had with Ed and it was minor was over an Ortofon stylus but he took care of it in a timely manner plus refunded my postage. I just wish i'd of had the two Empire catrtidges i have now when he was selling all those Empire styluses last summer.

Yes, that's the one. When I tried it out loud passages on every LP that I tried had heavy distortion. Soft sections actually sounded good. My gripe with Ed is that he stated that this stylus was for the 681 and indicated that it was an upgrade. He either didn't know what he was selling or was saying whatever it took to sell his stuff. Either way, I won't buy from him again. I just wish I could get a NOS EEE stylus for my cart. What Stanton is currently selling for the 681EEE is a DJ stylus for another model which I suppose just happens to work, so why continue to make an old model? Anyway being a purest, I want the right one!

Clyde

 

[emaidel]

I just wish I could get a NOS EEE stylus for my cart. Anyway being a purest, I want the right one!

Clyde

Jerry Raskin's "The Needle Doctor" sells original replacement styli for the 681EEE, and also a replacement for the company's current 680 Hi-Fi model. If I'm correct, the "Hi-Fi" designation replaces the older "EE" designation, and as I've stated previously, the 680EE and the 681EEE (not the "S") version are identical: one's calibrated, and the other isn't.

If you look on Jerry Raskin's page for Stanton replacement styli, you'll see that the D-6800Hi-Fi has no brush. That's of little consequence, as you can easily remove the brush from your existing stylus, and snap it into the new one, should you choose to buy this model.

This should work, and it'll save you $30 in the process.

Jerry also sells the replacement stylus for the 881-S, but that won't work in your cartridge body. Yours is moving iron, and the 881-S is moving magnet.

Good luck!

 

[P. Shivers]

Jerry Raskin's "The Needle Doctor" sells original replacement styli for the 681EEE, and also a replacement for the company's current 680 Hi-Fi model. If I'm correct, the "Hi-Fi" designation replaces the older "EE" designation, and as I've stated previously, the 680EE and the 681EEE (not the "S") version are identical: one's calibrated, and the other isn't.

If you look on Jerry Raskin's page for Stanton replacement styli, you'll see that the D-6800Hi-Fi has no brush. That's of little consequence, as you can easily remove the brush from your existing stylus, and snap it into the new one, should you choose to buy this model.

This should work, and it'll save you $30 in the process.

Jerry also sells the replacement stylus for the 881-S, but that won't work in your cartridge body. Yours is moving iron, and the 881-S is moving magnet.

Good luck!

How about replacement styli for the 681EEES? The one you mentioned at The Needle Doctor is an elyptical, not stereohedron stylus. I have a 681EEES on my Pioneer PL-400, both purchased new by me in the late '70s. A few years back I replaced the original stylus, because it had been damaged by someone at a party. The replacement isn't a Stanton stylus, but the guy who sold it to me said it would work. It does, but sounds pretty flat, compared to the original.

 

[emaidel]

I sincerely doubt you'd hear much difference between the elliptical or the Stereohedron stylus for the 681EEE. Other than the configuration of the actual tip, nothing else is different. I don't work for Stanton anymore, but I sincerely expect that the Stereohedron stylus is history because of its very high cost to purchase (most cartridge manufacturers purchase the diamonds from an OEM supplier, and don't actually manufacture them themselves) due to the severely limited sales of their line of consumer audio products, as opposed to the DJ models. As a Stereohedron stylus serves no purpose whatsoever to a DJ, I can't say that I blame them.

 

[bohhey]

Very informative thread - thanks for the history lesson. As I recall selling upper end stereos in the early 70's for college (fun) money, most customers looked right past the Pickerings or Stantons in favor of the trusty Shure M-91-ED. They JUST couldn't understand the concept of 2 grams tracking force versus 1 gram - after all, less tracking force is better for the records, right?? We were ok with that - great margins on the Shure carts, & sold 'em a Discwasher to boot. Then Crutchfield arrived on the scene & was chunking out M-91-ed's for $29.95 - there went the good margins - no more $55.00 carts.

The M-91-ed did a great job - put it on a Dual, with a 2270 Marantz & large Advents, go home & play "Lucky Man" & knock all of the plaster off of the walls. Did put one system together with a pair of Crown D-300-A's - boy, did THEY rock.