The Difference Between Radio Craftsmen RC-2 and Model 2

[cooljjay]

Ok I have a problem. I had a radio craftsmen 6v6 amp, it had no metal tag or signs of one being applied to the amp, which is normally seen on RC-2's. I dug around deep and all rc-2's I seen had this badge. I then started looking at model 2's and they had no badge and the same speaker decal as mine, it was identical to the model 2 in the sams photofacts. So I called mine an model 2 when I sold it. I now receive an email from the new owner stating that its a model rc-2. I went searching again same results. I am stumped, is there a difference between an rc-2 and model 2? They look the same but he says they are different. I posted photos of every angle of the amp, couldn't he tell from the photos that it was a rc-2, if that is what it is. Anyone know what the difference is?

 

[Tom Bavis]

According to Sams folders, RC-2 is 1948, model 2 is 1952. Part numbers on transformers, date codes might be the only way to tell.

 

[GordonW]

I have the RC-10 preamp/tuner (AM/FM/phono/line in)... I, too, have had some confusion as to whether its a Model 10 or an RC10.

In the end, I found that there was VERY little difference, between the units I found that were called "RC10" and those just called "Model 10". Supposedly, one has one more tube than the other... but I can't find evidence of the one with the extra tube, anywhere, in pictures or descriptions of units people actually HAVE in HAND...

I guess the point here is, that Radio Craftsman seems to have played a little fast and loose with these model numbers... probably as they updated features on the units, subtly... with some old-style units getting the new model number, during transition periods...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[cooljjay]

According to Sams folders, RC-2 is 1948, model 2 is 1952. Part numbers on transformers, date codes might be the only way to tell.

This is what I thought, but he says there is a huge wiring/component difference. I am having that feeling that the other amp that he has is modded or repaired or not even a radio craftsmen. But I don't know how to explain it to him.

 

[mpholland]

Not sure about the model 2 and the RC-2, but the model 10 and RC-10 are definitely different. My model 10 uses 12AX7 where the RC-10 uses 12AU7 and I believe there is an extra RF tube in the RC-10. I found this out when I ordered an RC-10 SAMS for my model 10.

 

[Tom Bavis]

RC-2 riders pages: http://www.theused.com/manuals/craftsmen/craftsmen_rc-2.pdf
Sams for Model 2 is on my page (as are 10 and RC-10):http://www.audiophool.cjb.net/hifistuff.html - same tubes, but circuit IS different...

 

[cooljjay]

Ok so this guy is starting a paypal claim, so this means I will lose 354$ and a amp. What should I do? I posted photos of the amp from all directions, if I mislabeled the amp, couldn't he tell what it was by the clear photo of the underside? Can't the amp just be wired to match a model 2 if it is a rc-2? What do I do?

 

[larryderouin]

I have the RC-10 preamp/tuner (AM/FM/phono/line in)... I, too, have had some confusion as to whether its a Model 10 or an RC10.

In the end, I found that there was VERY little difference, between the units I found that were called "RC10" and those just called "Model 10". Supposedly, one has one more tube than the other... but I can't find evidence of the one with the extra tube, anywhere, in pictures or descriptions of units people actually HAVE in HAND...

I guess the point here is, that Radio Craftsman seems to have played a little fast and loose with these model numbers... probably as they updated features on the units, subtly... with some old-style units getting the new model number, during transition periods...

Regards,
Gordon.

IIRC the Model 10 has a 12ax7 Cathode follower where the RC-10 doesn't.
I don't have it anymore, but I might have the schematics.

Larry

 

[ferninando]

Ok so this guy is starting a paypal claim, so this means I will lose 354$ and a amp. What should I do? I posted photos of the amp from all directions, if I mislabeled the amp, couldn't he tell what it was by the clear photo of the underside? Can't the amp just be wired to match a model 2 if it is a rc-2? What do I do?

I would be prepaired to counterclaim and prove you supplied all the known,to you, information available to allow the buyer to decide if he was buying what he thought. Did he communicate fully his thoughts, you got his emails? did you explain everything he asked about,? Provide pics. If you can show you didnt mislead or decieve in any way then you should be OK and it was up to the buyer to ask questions and look at the pics. IMO. Hope it tourns out in your favor.:thmbsp:
Ebay is always "buyer beware".

 

[cooljjay]

I would be prepaired to counterclaim and prove you supplied all the known,to you, information available to allow the buyer to decide if he was buying what he thought. Did he communicate fully his thoughts, you got his emails? did you explain everything he asked about,? Provide pics. If you can show you didnt mislead or decieve in any way then you should be OK and it was up to the buyer to ask questions and look at the pics. IMO. Hope it tourns out in your favor.:thmbsp:
Ebay is always "buyer beware".

Yes that is what I am doing, I am explaining to him that both amps look identical and the only difference is wiring as Tom said. I sent him the schematics and told him that I couldn't tell what amp I offered unless I had it in my hands. I also said since the 2 models use the same parts perhaps you could wire it to match what every amp you have. What really gets me is he says he has 2 model rc-2 and was attempting to pair up a model 2. Well if you have the model 2, wouldn't you compare the amp you already have to the amp being sold? It really stinks to as the person is in Japan, meaning shipping 2 ways is 140$. I was thinking of escalating it to a paypal claim and letting them decided. But would they be able to tell if I sold him a model 2 or RC-2? I mean its not like I sold him a yellow book and it was a green book.

 

[Obscurities]

I know this is quite late in this discussion, but figured the information may be of use to someone researching the difference and coming across this thread.

It is my understanding that the easiest way to tell an unaltered Model 2 and RC-2 apart is by the top of the chassis. On an original earlier RC-2 there is a pot mounted in the middle of a rather large area of chrome surface at the end opposite of the transformer. On the later Model 2, there is no pot, but the hole is still there.

 

[s-petersen]

According to a page I found, some rc-2 didn't have the pot,(possibly I misinterpret it)The page I found has directions how to update it with the pot.I have a model 2 and the easiest way to figure it out was matching it to the Sams

 

[s-petersen]

Yes that is what I am doing, I am explaining to him that both amps look identical and the only difference is wiring as Tom said. I sent him the schematics and told him that I couldn't tell what amp I offered unless I had it in my hands. I also said since the 2 models use the same parts perhaps you could wire it to match what every amp you have. What really gets me is he says he has 2 model rc-2 and was attempting to pair up a model 2. Well if you have the model 2, wouldn't you compare the amp you already have to the amp being sold? It really stinks to as the person is in Japan, meaning shipping 2 ways is 140$. I was thinking of escalating it to a paypal claim and letting them decided. But would they be able to tell if I sold him a model 2 or RC-2? I mean its not like I sold him a yellow book and it was a green book.

Wouldn't they have to pay return shipping?

 

[funkwrench]

RC-2 vs Craftsmen 2

I realize this is VERY late in the conversation but i am adding my 3 cents worth because google search hits this thread. The RC-2 is the older of the two amps. It is most easily distinguished by the balance pot on the top of the deck. The chassis and often the label were re-cycled to make the Craftsmen 2. This is easily distinguished by the hole in the chassis. The label often has the RC in RC-2 painted out with black paint.

The real difference is in the circuit. The earlier RC-2 used a paraphase phase-splitter. This is seldom seen anymore. Signal goes from the 6J5 to first section of 6sn7. The signal is amplified and sent to one of the 6V6 output tubes. At the same time, this signal is sampled and sent to a simple voltage divider. The reduced signal is re-amplified by the second section of the 6SN7 tube and sent to the other 6V6 tube. Hope this makes some sense.

The later Craftsmen 2 used a conventional phase splitter with the signals taken from the plate and the cathode of the second 6sn7 section.

I believe but do not know for sure that the output transformers were beefed-up in the later models. I also believe but don't know that the primary impedance of the OPT is different for the two models.

I will try to scan the schematics I have (and I have them both) and post them here along with further comments.

OH. About the paper labels. I have seen the paper labels on these things. I have also seen amps where the paper label has come off and left only a paper "ghost." I do not know anything about them.

Whatever happened with the weird ebay claim, above? It sounded to me like neither the buyer or seller was entirely sure what he had.

best wishes -
Joe

 

[funkwrench]

RC-2 vs Craftsmen 2 Amplifiers by Radio Craftsmen

Here are some photos of Craftsmen amps and schematics that I hope will make these amps a bit less confusing. From left to right:

1. Name-plate of RC-2 ca Serial # 13,000 + This serial number is likely a very late example.
2. Name plate of the Craftsmen 2 Amp. Serial # 17,000 +. Note that "RC" has been painted out. Also the hum-pot on the tube chart has been obscured by paint.
3. Sams schematic of the RC-2. Key circuit difference is the paraphase phase-splitter, using both sections of the 6SN7 tube. Also hum-pot on 6J5 filaments.
4. Sams schematic of RC-2, as in #3. above.
5. Original schematic of Craftsmen 2 from Radio Craftsmen. Note conventional split-load phase-splitter in second section of 6SN7. No hum pot.

 

[funkwrench]

RC-2 vs Craftsmen 2 Amplifiers by Radio Craftsmen pt. 2

More photos:
1. chassis of RC-2. (disregard non-original on/off switch, second RCA input) Note the hum-pot near the middle of the top edge of the chassis, in photo.
2. Chassis of Craftsmen-2. Note hole in chassis. No hum-pot
3. Speaker terminals, RC-2. Note 500 ohm output on right.
4. Speaker terminals, Craftsmen-2. Note standard 4, 8, 16 ohm terminals.

I would be delighted to see more information on these amps. I am especially interested in early production examples of the RC-2. What is the story on the so-called paper label? What serial numbers can you expect to see with that label? Any other significant variations? As always, documentation is key. If you once owned one and remember a detail or two or if you "heard" something about these amplifiers, that might be fascinating but, in the end, its just folklore.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Tinkerbelle]

Good new information!

I have been interested in these as well as the C400 amps as there is not a lot of detail out there on these.

 

[funkwrench]

I have the complete photofact on the C400, too. It is very similar to the Craftsmen 2 model. It has a slightly more sophisticated feedback scheme and, of course, the different chassis.

I will soon try to post what I have on the C400.

 

[Selmerdave]

Hi folks,

Just to add to the discussion, I have a pair of RC-2's. Mine are serial # 15511 and #15200. Both are RC-2's with the metal nameplate, hum pot and paraphase splitter.

One question I have if anyone can answer, one of mine (15511) appears original and the OPT is a Stancor with a metal stamp showing model no. A-3311. The other one I got came with a replacement OPT that was a universal. Years back I managed to find a NOS Stancor A-3311, which has a yellow sticker label on it rather than a metal stamp. The sticker specifies 10k primary, but the RC-2 manual specifies an 8k primary. Can anyone clarify any info about their OPT's? Both of mine are Stancor A-3311's but I don't know if they are matched.

Any info appreciated.

Dave

 

[tcdriver]

Yes, I know this is a very old thread, however; there is a lot of information about Radio Craftsmen RC-2 and Craftsmen 2 amplifiers. I used to have three of these but lost two. The remaining unit claims to be a MODEL RC-2. Please see the photos.

Paper Label ?

Hum balance pot: