The new FIIO Warmer R2R Tube Buffer DAC

[Mart Mccall]

SINAD is a false paradigm.

It's not a paradigm - if distortion is high enough it will colour the sound of everything you listen to. Noise if high enough will obscure small details and ambience.

Okay so it's only 1 in a hundred devices that will have that level of noise or distortion and that makes it barely relevant but seems to me it is used at ASR as a general marker of 'good engineering' it's not meant to be a star rating system like the magazines have even though it is used to make a 'ranking' system.

Which is probably a mistake as I think ASR underestimates just how many people won't understand that and will think it directly relates to relative 'sound quality' across the ranked devices.

There's about ten other parameters that get tested in addition to noise and distortion. If there wasn't then you'd have a point.

 

[prisoners]

And yet another thread gets derailed WAY off topic. Nothing about the last full page has anything to do with the title; it’s devolved into another who will outlast who for final word about something irrelevant. Good job. I’m out.

 

[Gigantic]

I leave it. It's a one track forum. And very rude. Audio is about listening. These guys are a measurements circle Jerk. It doesn't get you anywhere if everything sounds the same except derisively stated "Golden Ears". The reality is that the whole point of the hobby has always been about finding value in the sound. It doesn't matter if the sound comes from circuit design or distortion characteristics. What matters is your taste, audible discernment and the joy in it. The magic lies in the mystery. Measurements have always existed. But they are irrelevant.

The other distasteful element is the chorus of minions all repeating the same self satisfied phrases. It's grotesque and pathetic. Every thread is the same. "This piece on kind loan...followed by the same obnoxious all- knowing chuckling...

I find the objective measurements useful to an extent, but not as beneficial as an objective review from a reviewer I respect. Even reviews from media persons I don't respect are useful- I think Steve Guttenberg, for instance, is a burned out hippy who glad-hands most of his reviews, but he is at least consistent enough in his application of superlatives that one can interpret them into their own personal preferences. ASR's emphasis on SINAD are helpful in determining the amount of noise a component does or doesn't add to a system, but it says little else. This is useful for me as a horn enthusiast, as my speakers are rather revealing, however SINAD tells us little about how a component actually sounds IRL. According to ASR's rubric, for instance, my Schiit Freya+ measures best in passive preamp mode and they would advocate that means it the best use mode, however, I doubt that any person who actually owns a Freya+ would tell you that. To that end, ASR's myopic emphasis on measurements to the exclusion of subjective impressions, seriously limits the utility of the information provided. Evaluating an audio component isn't an either/or case with regards to objective impressions or subjective measurements; in a best case scenario, it's both/and, with a subjective review providing foundational information, with measurements either supporting those objective assessments or providing insight into how our ears might not work as well as we believe and helping us understand why.

 

[GChief]

And yet another thread gets derailed WAY off topic. Nothing about the last full page has anything to do with the title; it’s devolved into another who will outlast who for final word about something irrelevant. Good job. I’m out.

But that's okay, this is just a conversation and conversations ebb and flow

 

[SWL3600]

I have a Tubemagic D1 and it really shined once I installed some Sparkos SS3602 op amps. It has been replaced in my main system, but I keep it around for testing as it can be used as a preamp.

Yeah, I did the Sparkos as well. If this Warmer DAC does the same as the D2 I'll definitely consider it.

 

[karljansen]

I leave it. It's a one track forum. And very rude. Audio is about listening. These guys are a measurements circle Jerk. It doesn't get you anywhere if everything sounds the same except derisively stated "Golden Ears". The reality is that the whole point of the hobby has always been about finding value in the sound. It doesn't matter if the sound comes from circuit design or distortion characteristics. What matters is your taste, audible discernment and the joy in it. The magic lies in the mystery. Measurements have always existed. But they are irrelevant.

The other distasteful element is the chorus of minions all repeating the same self satisfied phrases. It's grotesque and pathetic. Every thread is the same. "This piece on kind loan...followed by the same obnoxious all- knowing chuckling...

I'll occasionally go to ASR out of curiosity to see how something I own measures but I avoid the subsequent discussion like the plague. Perfect example is the FiiO K11 R2R, which I bought out of an interest in hearing what a modern R2R-based device might sound like compared to my vintage Parasound D/AC-1100 and D/AC-2000 (both R2R, Burr-Brown and Ultra Analog, respectively).

They slammed the K11 R2R as having horrible harmonic distortion and deemed it unacceptable. I look at that chart while listening to it and while the distortion is higher than their favorite DACs it's still well below the threshold of human perception. I've also carefully A/B'd the K11 against the $2000 in 1998 D/AC-2000 and I can't tell them apart. Note that I'm a lifelong musician on multiple instruments and I have decades of experience recording and mixing in the studio, and the last time I released something I spent 10 days mastering 5 songs, a process that requires extremely critical listening and also conforming to specific criteria required by the streaming platforms.

My take now is that since sometime in the early 80s the quality of music recording and reproduction equipment has gotten so good that it's nearly impossible for most people to tell the difference between solid state amplifiers, preamps, DACs, CDs, and any digital file better than 320kbps mp3. Producers and musicians introduce lots of distortion and color to the sound using tubes, vintage microphones, live rooms, and various saturation effects in the mix, so I view my listening setup as a way to hear the artist's intent relatively transparently. People who are into tubes, tape, and vinyl can color the sound that way.

The fun for me now mostly comes from admiring the industrial design of the gear, collecting matching pieces, rotating different speakers in and out, experimenting with listening position in the room, the ritual of putting on an LP or CD, and last but not least, the music itself

 

[karljansen]

I think this conversation is pretty relevant to the FiiO Warmer R2R, because it's a product that is interesting for reasons other than how well it measures. It's antithetical to the entire philosophy and attitude of ASR, with members who will not celebrate anything new until they can add another zero to the SINAD rating. The ASR forum is the audio counterpart to the James Randi (JREF) forums. The culture is materialistic, godless, and rabid in its attempt to defend a certain very limited worldview.

 

[Isotonic]

It's not a paradigm - if distortion is high enough it will colour the sound of everything you listen to. Noise if high enough will obscure small details and ambience.

Okay so it's only 1 in a hundred devices that will have that level of noise or distortion and that makes it barely relevant but seems to me it is used at ASR as a general marker of 'good engineering' it's not meant to be a star rating system like the magazines have even though it is used to make a 'ranking' system.

Which is probably a mistake as I think ASR underestimates just how many people won't understand that and will think it directly relates to relative 'sound quality' across the ranked devices.

There's about ten other parameters that get tested in addition to noise and distortion. If there wasn't then you'd have a point.

The paradigm is that SINAD is relative. It's not, for the reasons that you stated. Therefore it isn't useful. Yet that is the measure of quality from them. It's not even a measure of quality engineering. If a SINAD is worse than another, but is electronically stable, and especially if undetectable, then it's a meaningless number in an y conversation about audio. They also like to talk about price and form factors. But usually in relation to SINAD. If something costs more than their latest Darling Topping product, and has a lower higher SINAD, then they trash it. Adding that they all sound the same (or if you think not, you are deluded), and therefore you are being snake-oiled.

 

[Mart Mccall]

The paradigm is that SINAD is relative. It's not, for the reasons that you stated. Therefore it isn't useful. Yet that is the measure of quality from them. It's not even a measure of quality engineering. If a SINAD is worse than another, but is electronically stable, and especially if undetectable, then it's a meaningless number in an y conversation about audio. They also like to talk about price and form factors. But usually in relation to SINAD. If something costs more than their latest Darling Topping product, and has a lower higher SINAD, then they trash it. Adding that they all sound the same (or if you think not, you are deluded), and therefore you are being snake-oiled.

I think your painting a bit of a caricature of ASR there but there is an element of that, I agree. Not so much the DAC reviews (personally I don't think the DAC is of much consequence in the overall sound quality of a system) but the amplifier reviews do concentrate a bit too much on SINAD and power output and not enough on load-driving ability - sometimes that does get tested, sometimes not.

Even when it is, it is just via a dummy load which is only partially informative. I'd like to see them tested into a speaker with low EPDR and see if it blows a fuse or goes into protection if you crank it up a bit - that's happened to me more than once!

Anyway we are off topic so I'll leave it there.

 

[33-13]

You may find this an interesting read given the turn this thread has taken. Still enjoying my <100% accurate Warmer.

Headphonesty

 

[Isotonic]

You may find this an interesting read given the turn this thread has taken. Still enjoying my <100% accurate Warmer.

Headphonesty

Here's another interesting article with a clue to the mystery.

There's Evidence Humans Didn't Actually See Blue Until Modern Times

Human vision is incredible - most of us are capable of seeing around 1 million colours, and yet we still don't really know if all of us perceive these colours in the same way.

www.sciencealert.com

The point being that human perception is mysterious and poorly understood. And not something that can be captured with measurement. In fact, measurement alone may be the inhibiting factor.

 

[Mart Mccall]

Here's another interesting article with a clue to the mystery.

There's Evidence Humans Didn't Actually See Blue Until Modern Times

Human vision is incredible - most of us are capable of seeing around 1 million colours, and yet we still don't really know if all of us perceive these colours in the same way.

www.sciencealert.com

The point being that human perception is mysterious and poorly understood. And not something that can be captured with measurement. In fact, measurement alone may be the inhibiting factor.

Bit of a click bait title as the research they quote didn't conclude that.

With regards to the Fiio DAC I can think of a couple of more prosaic reasons why it might be slightly different

The 2nd harmonic distortion is 60dB below signal and spreads on into the higher harmonics where distortion doesn't need to be so high in order to be audible. Even so I don't think that would be obviously audible with music but I think subconscious audibility is not impossible.

Frequency response starts rolling off very gradually from 10KHz and up. Okay there's not a lot of music happening that high up the spectrum, but again this might be enough for a subconscious effect on our perception of the sound.

 

[Vlad Soare]

The point being that human perception is mysterious and poorly understood. And not something that can be captured with measurement.

While that is indeed true, it's completely beside the point.
Measurements are not meant to capture or describe your perception, but just the technical behaviour of the equipment before the sound reaches your ears. Measurements will show that if the sound engineer encoded a signal of 1243.763 Hz at -23.7 dBFS, then what comes down the other side of the chain is as close as possible to 1243.763 Hz at -23.7 dBFS, with as little spurious electronic artefacts as possible.
Whether you actually hear that frequency, whether you perceive it in a certain way or not, that's completely irrelevant in this context. No one is trying to measure how you perceive that frequency. All they're measuring is whether it's there, and to which extent, and whether it's clean. What's being measured is how well the device performs the particular job of reproducing the original signal as faithfully as possible, and not how you or I happen to perceive it, nor whether we happen to like it.

 

[Isotonic]

While that is indeed true, it's completely beside the point.
Measurements are not meant to capture or describe your perception, but just the technical behaviour of the equipment before the sound reaches your ears. Measurements will show that if the sound engineer encoded a signal of 1243.763 Hz at -23.7 dBFS, then what comes down the other side of the chain is as close as possible to 1243.763 Hz at -23.7 dBFS, with as little spurious electronic artefacts as possible.
Whether you actually hear that frequency, whether you perceive it in a certain way or not, that's completely irrelevant in this context. No one is trying to measure how you perceive that frequency. All they're measuring is whether it's there, and to which extent, and whether it's clean. What's being measured is how well the device performs the particular job of reproducing the original signal as faithfully as possible, and not how you or I happen to perceive it, nor whether we happen to like it.

But recording Engineers don't do that. Recording are subjectivists. Their decisions are completely subjectively driven. And they use multiple reference points in their judgement. Their choice of frequency is always relative. Never absolute. Their work is not meant to be captured by anything more than a consumer stereo. Their work as they heard it can never be captured. That was never their objective. Their objectives are in relationship to capturing a performance. It's an illusion show. Hifi stereos give a view, but there is no singular legitimate view.

 

[Isotonic]

Bit of a click bait title as the research they quote didn't conclude that.

With regards to the Fiio DAC I can think of a couple of more prosaic reasons why it might be slightly different

The 2nd harmonic distortion is 60dB below signal and spreads on into the higher harmonics where distortion doesn't need to be so high in order to be audible. Even so I don't think that would be obviously audible with music but I think subconscious audibility is not impossible.

Frequency response starts rolling off very gradually from 10KHz and up. Okay there's not a lot of music happening that high up the spectrum, but again this might be enough for a subconscious effect on our perception of the sound.

I like your assertion about subconscious perception. It doesn't matter about the click bait title. The idea has been out there for a while.

 

[Vlad Soare]

But recording Engineers don't do that. Recording are subjectivists. Their decisions are completely subjectively driven. And they use multiple reference points in their judgement. Their choice of frequency is always relative. Never absolute. Their work is not meant to be captured by anything more than a consumer stereo. Their work as they heard it can never be captured. That was never their objective. Their objectives are in relationship to capturing a performance. It's an illusion show. Hifi stereos give a view, but there is no singular legitimate view.

Doesn't matter. Whether their choice is subjective or not, doesn't change the object and purpose of the measurements. It doesn't matter how that particular frequency of 1243.763 got to be encoded at -23.7 dBFS. Whether it was a mathematical decision, or a subjective one, or an accident, doesn't matter. All that the measurements are concerned with is how faithfully the equipment can reproduce it.
I don't care if that frequency is there because the conductor wanted it to be, or because the concertmaster wanted to play his violin like that, or because his bow just happened to inadvertently slip for an instant, or because a microphone wire was twisted, or because the sound engineer's wife wanted it that way. I don't care. All I want to know is if that frequency is going to be reproduced, and how faithfully. That's what measurements are all about.
Whether that information is useful or not, is a completely different discussion. Maybe it isn't. I'll give you that it probably isn't. But still, many of the great conductors used to spend a lot of time in the studio, listening to their recordings and being actively involved in the technical process. Karajan, for instance, was known to take a very keen interest in that part. So, while those decisions may have been indeed subjective, they come from people whose subjective opinions I'm actually interested in, so I don't mind.

 

[Jon S]

I just got notified that my FiiO Warmer has been shipped from China direct with an ETA of Feb 24... According to the seller APOS USA, there should be no tariffs charged for the DAC. Not sure about that, the tariffs from China is supposed to apply to all goods at 45%. If I am charged Trump's dumb tariffs, i will be sorely upset. It's been a long two months since I ordered it...

I see Amazon has it listed again, shipping date is Mid-March...

 

[Sliphorn]

I just got notified that my FiiO Warmer has been shipped from China direct with an ETA of Feb 24... According to the seller APOS USA, there should be no tariffs charged for the DAC. Not sure about that, the tariffs from China is supposed to apply to all goods at 45%. If I am charged Trump's dumb tariffs, i will be sorely upset. It's been a long two months since I ordered it...

I see Amazon has it listed again, shipping date is Mid-March...

.
Apos charged you $349 so that is what you will pay.
.

 

[btl3.01993]

I just got notified that my FiiO Warmer has been shipped from China direct with an ETA of Feb 24... According to the seller APOS USA, there should be no tariffs charged for the DAC. Not sure about that, the tariffs from China is supposed to apply to all goods at 45%. If I am charged Trump's dumb tariffs, i will be sorely upset. It's been a long two months since I ordered it...

I see Amazon has it listed again, shipping date is Mid-March...

Lucky dawg. I got a notice email also, but its them giving me a partial refund due to delay in shipping. So I’m still on the waiting train.

 

[whell]

If you want to get closer to the artists intent, SINAD will not get you there.

If you want to get closer to the artist's intent, get rid of the producer and the record label.