The Technics 1200 Fascination?

[canadapuck]

This is a recurring issue that I have, I keep wanting to re-own a technics sl1200 mk2, preferably in black. This is not the first time that I have had this issue but it's something I want to be talked out of, or maybe diagnosed and cured of? So I am looking for all the good reasons why the 1200 is not good, that's right, not good. Before you reply please understand, I've had this unit before, in fact I've owned three at different times and each time I had one I sold it because of their lack of musicality.
Strangely enough however I love how they look and feel, they are visual and tactile wonders. Easy to use and easy to look at. Sound, not so much.
So maybe this is just about paying homage to what they are good at? Looking cool... Whenever I watch a show about vinyl enthusiasts the 1200 is there, off in the background in some groovy pad with a hip German or British cat wearing a band t-shirt.
It's going to be easy to dismiss this as a genuine first world problem. But please don't rush to judgment since if you are on this forum as I am then I must assume that you just as I, spend a perhaps disproportionate amount of brain power on which audio components best suit your lifestyle and tastes and in my case those tastes include self perception.
So the question then becomes what turntable best defines me?

 

[Karmices]

This is a recurring issue that I have, I keep wanting to re-own a technics sl1200 mk2, preferably in black.

If you want it in black, then you want a SL1210.

The only thing I'd say is not good on the 1200 is the look of the slider. Aside from that I can't say anything not good about this timeless classic.

 

[canadapuck]

Thanks for the input Karmices but If memory serves the 1210 isn't a colour designation but rather that it's a dual voltage model. So if you wanted one that came from Japan then it had better be a 1210. Neither here nor there but yes in all else I agree, it's a timeless classic. I mean, they all come from Japan but...

 

[SA-708]

I'd be OK with owning a 1200. I used them when I was a college radio DJ back in the 1980s, and they were reliable and rugged, but not outside the budget for a student-run broadcasting club.

There's a whole cottage industry of upgrades for the 1200s to improve the sound, so if you want one and better sound, there's an upgrade path for that. Go look at http://kabusa.com for starters.

IIRC, the 1200/1210 colour distinction didn't hold true over the decades; Technics made black SL-1200Mk5s.

10 years ago, I was saving up to by a 1200 of some stripe from KAB, when the opportunity to buy a restored Technics SL-M3 came up, and I went with the rarer option, thinking that I could always get a 1200 later as they were cheap, plentiful, and still in production at the time. I don't regret the path I have taken, spending 10 years investigating and collecting p-mount cartridges, but I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I had bought an SL-1200Mk5 and started down the upgrade path.

 

[malden]

.......... So I am looking for all the good reasons why the 1200 is not good, that's right, not good. Before you reply please understand, I've had this unit before, in fact I've owned three at different times and each time I had one I sold it because of their lack of musicality.
Strangely enough however I love how they look and feel, they are visual and tactile wonders. Easy to use and easy to look at. Sound, not so much.
..........

I had a similar impression of my SL 1800 MK2 which is very similar to the 1200, it was kind of "dull" sounding. But this was just an impression, I didn't do any meaningful comparisons to other turntables.

What cartridges were you using in them and what about the rest of your system?

 

[canadapuck]

I had a similar impression of my SL 1800 MK2 which is very similar to the 1200, it was kind of "dull" sounding. But this was just an impression, I didn't do any meaningful comparisons to other turntables.

What cartridges were you using in them and what about the rest of your system?

Thanks for the reply Malden, at the time I was using a Nagaoka mp30 but I have also used them with a Stanton 681eee as well as a Shure v15 mkiii. Perhaps a more lively cart would make a difference you think? I really do want to love them but in my comparisons vintage models like the AR XA just blew it out of the water musically.

 

[KrisM]

I'm not sure what the issue is?
Grab one, mod it up, drop the needle on some Grapes of Wrath, and enjoy.

 

[canadapuck]

#1. If they didn't spin the record right maybe your voltage was off.

#2. You should try a basic HI-FI TT or something with a crank handle.

Hi, thanks for the reply... I think...

 

[canadapuck]

I'm not sure what the issue is?
Grab one, mod it up, drop the needle on some Grapes of Wrath, and enjoy.

Thanks for the reply,
That is exactly what I want to do! I love the way that they make listening to vinyl fun, even my little kids could get down with my records but somehow my ear got to lament the lack of resonance that the big rubber plinth causes. I truly felt like my Jazz was muffled, lots of toe tapping rhythm but Miles and Oscar sounded far less wonderful than usual.

 

[majick47]

A change of cartridge would make a different presentation. The term "musical" has been bandied about by some mfgs and from my experience it signifies inaccurate, bloated sound due to speed issues. OP you might want to check out the newest Technics the SL-1200GR.

 

[canadapuck]

A change of cartridge would make a different presentation. The term "musical" has been bandied about by some mfgs and from my experience it signifies inaccurate, bloated sound due to speed issues. OP you might want to check out the newest Technics the SL-1200GR.

That's a great idea, they are a bit spendy but I should head on down to the hi-fi centre and give one a go. That said, part of the allure for the original line up is the utter "replaceabilty" (is that a word?) of it and its components. Whereas dropping 5k might take some of the ease of use factor away due to the financial tension I would feel. I can barely let my wife use my Thorens 124 without watching her every move!

 

[KrisM]

Thanks for the reply,
That is exactly what I want to do! I love the way that they make listening to vinyl fun, even my little kids could get down with my records but somehow my ear got to lament the lack of resonance that the big rubber plinth causes. I truly felt like my Jazz was muffled, lots of toe tapping rhythm but Miles and Oscar sounded far less wonderful than usual.

No problem!

I'm not a big spender when it comes to vinyl. I came at it in the early 2000s, and have bounced around a few tables over the years that I've picked up at thrifts and such.
I've never owned a 1200, but one table that has given me a lot of music joy is an SL-Q3. Another is an XA.
I'm currently using a Sony that I plan on gifting along this summer in one system, and the XA in another system. I'll be putting the Q3 back into the rotation soon, but I'll never part with the AR.

 

[canadapuck]

I don't find mine lacking musicality at all. The KAB fluid damper introduced a major improvement with some cartridges and I can't recommend it highly enough. Others didn't notice the change at all. For the ones that did notice the change, the results were amazing and appreciated. Low capacitance RCAs has also been a great thing, but mine came with those, so I can't compare. But I might add that if you had the high capacitance issue, that could account for lack of musicality with some, especially MM, cartridges.

Thanks for the reply, I have been on Kevin's site and purchased the upgrade kardas tonearm wires for my unit at the time, I did notice a bit more clarity but I wonder what the fluid dampener would accomplish since my issue has been with too much dampening due the big rubber base. Maybe someone has anyone tried the sp10 or sp15 and can offer some notion of how they vary from the 1200.

 

[SA-708]

I also have a Technics P Mount TT with a large collection of P Mount cartridges, so @SA-708 you're just slacking.

I know. Its a combination of a lack of spare funds and a lack of time. I've had a Sony XL-250G on the arm of the SL-MA1 for 4 months that needs further evaluation (have 3 different styli), with an Audiotechnica ATU4040EP and a Pioneer PC-290T cart with a PN-300T stylus sitting around waiting their turn. The box of new records that have not yet been played has overflowed into a second & third box. Between work (my office is moving across campus this summer), two kids, church, and community theatre, there's only so many hours in the day.

Oh, and I still need to send you the 310MC too.

Perhaps when I retire in 15 years, I can get caught up.

 

[canadapuck]

No problem!

I'm not a big spender when it comes to vinyl. I came at it in the early 2000s, and have bounced around a few tables over the years that I've picked up at thrifts and such.
I've never owned a 1200, but one table that has given me a lot of music joy is an SL-Q3. Another is an XA.
I'm currently using a Sony that I plan on gifting along this summer in one system, and the XA in another system. I'll be putting the Q3 back into the rotation soon, but I'll never part with the AR.

I hear that! My AR XA was a surprise to behold. I was using an old Linn lp12 with SME tonearm and did the most casual of comparisons when I bought the AR (it came with some speakers at auction) and I was floored. What a simple and lovely deck, solid walnu plinth and big heavy aluminum platter. It took forever to get up to speed but once it was rolling it was easily the biggest surprise of my audio life. Even with the stock Shure m91ed it killed the Linn dead.
Now as for the Technics 1200, it is just such a quick start/stop and visually appealing unit that I have a hard time not imagining it when someone says the word turntable...

 

[empirelvr]

Thanks for the input Karmices but If memory serves the 1210 isn't a colour designation but rather that it's a dual voltage model. So if you wanted one that came from Japan then it had better be a 1210. Neither here nor there but yes in all else I agree, it's a timeless classic. I mean, they all come from Japan but...

Actually, Karmices is correct. But then again, so are you. The 1210 is a dual voltage model, but it's also the (only) black SL-1200MkII Technics made, so "everyone" calls the 1210 the black 1200.

 

[KrisM]

I hear that! My AR XA was a surprise to behold. I was using an old Linn lp12 with SME tonearm and did the most casual of comparisons when I bought the AR (it came with some speakers at auction) and I was floored. What a simple and lovely deck, solid walnu plinth and big heavy aluminum platter. It took forever to get up to speed but once it was rolling it was easily the biggest surprise of my audio life. Even with the stock Shure m91ed it killed the Linn dead.
Now as for the Technics 1200, it is just such a quick start/stop and visually appealing unit that I have a hard time not imagining it when someone says the word turntable...

I grew up with an XA in my house.
Didn't really know what is was, though. When I was little I wasn't allowed to touch it, and when I was old enough I couldn't have cared less, CDs were the thing.
I got into vinyl in the early 2000s and stumbled on one at a pawn shop a few years later. $20, a bit of elbow grease and internet help, a Shure V15III, and I was off an running. No way would I willingly part with it. My Q3 has served me well too, though.

Are you aware of @marcmorin? He's helped a ton of us AR fans here with mods.

 

[empirelvr]

Thanks for the reply Malden, at the time I was using a Nagaoka mp30 but I have also used them with a Stanton 681eee as well as a Shure v15 mkiii...

This might be part of the problem. The Stanton and Shure cartridges are really too compliant to use in the 1200's stock arm, especially the Shure. Plus the V15 Type III needs to be loaded with over 400 pf of capacitance (an often overlooked detail about this cart) to sound as intended. The Nagaoka is more of a match mass wise BUT the instructions specify a 100 pf capacitance loading, and the 1200's cable has a capacitance of 120 pF just by itself and given a preamp/receiver's average of 125 pf capacitance loading in the phono stage you were also not hearing it at it's optimum.

From your previous cart stash, it looks like the Stanton 681 with one of it's heavier tracking alternative styli would have been your best match. And perhaps changed your opinion of the 'table.

I know you want reasons to NOT get another one, but it looks like if you like high compliance MM's (I know I do) the KAB damper would be necessary to get the best out of them with the stock 1200 arm. (and pay attention to loading!)

And don't confuse damping in this context with what you and others call overdamping because of the rubber base and mat. While not apples to apples, it's not exactly apples to oranges either. Maybe more like apples to pears.

 

[empirelvr]

So, the thing is that if you were listening to the wrong cartridge, the fluid damping in the arm might have changed your mind. Chassis damping and arm damping are two different things. You might have thought that too much chassis or base damping was killing your sonics, but that damping was likely improving them. The problem is that if your cartridge and arm are resonating, there's only so much the base damping can do.

Ninja'd!!

 

[WaynerN]

Actually, Karmices is correct. But then again, so are you. The 1210 is a dual voltage model, but it's also the (only) black SL-1200MkII Technics made, so "everyone" calls the 1210 the black 1200.

I have the black SL-1200MKII (model year 2007) and the black SL-1210MK5 (model year 2010). The 1200 has an incandescent platter light, the 1210 has an LED platter light. The 1200 has an exposed on/off switch, the 1210 has this switch recessed. The 1200 has the simple speed slider with a locking center "0" speed (or dead-on) detent and LED indicator, the 1210 has no "0" detent, but has an extra button for dead-on speed. The 1200 is single voltage (120v) for USA, the 1210 is dual voltage. They also have different thickness record mats. I have also been told that the 1210 has "improved" tonearm wire, what ever that means.....