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Thiel 3.5 and Pioneer SX-980

M

MisterLish

New Member
Hello!

I am new to the AK community, and was hoping I could get some insight regarding a speaker/amplifier pairing.

I just purchased a beautiful Thiel CS3.5 pair, and I currently own a Pioneer SX-980.

1) Can I reasonably power the 3.5’s with the Pioneer SX-980?

2) I’ve read that Thiel speakers perform best with “high current amplifiers.” If so, can someone provide me with specific amplifiers that would pair well with the 3.5? I know some preference will come into play here. However, I am just looking for a list of amps that will not under power or overpower the Thiels. The goal is to not cause any damage to amp or speakers.

Thanks in advance, everyone!
-Mike
 
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A lot depends on the size of your space, the volume of your preferred listening, and the types of music you listen to. In a small space at reasonable volumes you'll be ok, I've powered CS3.5 with less (I used a 60WPC Marantz Model 30 in a small apartment for a while).

High current amplifiers generally refer to amps that "double down" (or nearly so) into 4 ohm loads. Ideally an amp that can do 100W at 8ohm should be able to do 200W at 4 ohm, in reality if you can find an amp that'll do 60% more that's not a bad place to start. The classic recommendation for Thiels is Krell, but I've had good luck with a Parasound and Bryston as well. 4 ohm capability is a must.

Do you have the Bass EQ for the Thiels?
 
FWIW, I'm presently using a Phase Linear A15 (65/100wpc, 8/4 ohms) with my Thiel CS3.6. As long as I'm not trying to raise the roof it works nicely.

Not as familiar with the 3.5, but the 3.6 has a low overall impedance curve. Under 3 ohms mostly, with minimum of 2.3 ohms. That's why people say they like "high current" amps. But, really, it's a matter of using an amplifier that can cope with the lower impedances like that. The plus side is they, the 3.6 anyway, don't have any nasty phase angle stuff going on.
 
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RossW said:
A lot depends on the size of your space, the volume of your preferred listening, and the types of music you listen to. In a small space at reasonable volumes you'll be ok, I've powered CS3.5 with less (I used a 60WPC Marantz Model 30 in a small apartment for a while).

High current amplifiers generally refer to amps that "double down" (or nearly so) into 4 ohm loads. Ideally an amp that can do 100W at 8ohm should be able to do 200W at 4 ohm, in reality if you can find an amp that'll do 60% more that's not a bad place to start. The classic recommendation for Thiels is Krell, but I've had good luck with a Parasound and Bryston as well. 4 ohm capability is a must.

Do you have the Bass EQ for the Thiels?
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Great info, thank you! And yes, I do have the bass EQ box.
 
whoaru99 said:
Just found a 3.5 impedance curve. 3.5 is a little more forgiving than the 3.6, being 5 - 6 ohms over most of the range.
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Excellent, I was worried the 3.5’s may be dipping into the 2-3 range which would not be good for my Pioneer. Glad to hear that it is 5-6 for most of the range. Thanks!
 
You may get sound out of this combination, but nowhere near what these speakers are capable of. I have a set of Thiel CS3.5 speakers and an SX-980. I did try that combination, but soon found the SX-980 will not drive these speakers very well. That is when I made a call to Thiel tech support. Very helpful folks and suprisingly were still supporting these older models. I ended up using a Crown XLS-1502 connected to the preamp outputs of the SX-980 until I found the appropriate electronics for the CS3.5s. Be careful to not overdrive the outputs on the SX-980 to clipping. The midrange drivers on the CS3.5s are prone to failure when driven to distortion. That is easy to do with the SX-980 driving power hungry inefficient speakers. The CS3.5 are "time aligned" speakers with crossovers that roll off much slower than a "consumer" grade speaker. I learned the hard way having had three midrange drivers rebuilt so far by Thiel. This was several years ago when I started getting back into vinyl. I have since move on to other things, but still have the CS3.5s that I am saving for a secondary system (if I ever have time to complete it). You may also consider sending the bass equalizer to Thiel to make sure it is perforning up to spec.
 
Unfortunately at this point I think Thiel is really gone. They hung on for a few years after Jim's death but at this point anything called Thiel is just a name :(

Rob at CSS bought out the service portion of the business back in 2018 and is still servicing the older stuff:
https://www.coherentsourceservice.com/

Definitely be careful with the mids, repair parts are no longer available and the suggested replacements are fair at best (and $$$). Jim's brother Tom has been messing around with updating some of their more iconic speakers (including the CS3.5) but I don't think he's found a satisfactory solution just yet.

The EQs are pretty robust, the only electrolytics are the 4 filter caps in the power supply, everything else is film caps and silicon.
 
Fantastic insight so far, thank you everyone. I have a chance to pick up a Silver Classé CAP-80 Amplifier for $500. Prelim research tells me this will be a much better fit With the 3.5’s, especially since it doubles at 4ohm (I.e., 80 wpc @ 8 ohms vs 160 wpc @ 4 ohms). Thoughts? Should I pick up the Classé to be my budget amp for the Thiel’s? I assume I would get Better performance from the Thiel’s on the Classé vs. the SX-980.
 
MisterLish said:
Fantastic insight so far, thank you everyone. I have a chance to pick up a Silver Classé CAP-80 Amplifier for $500. Prelim research tells me this will be a much better fit With the 3.5’s, especially since it doubles at 4ohm (I.e., 80 wpc @ 8 ohms vs 160 wpc @ 4 ohms). Thoughts? Should I pick up the Classé to be my budget amp for the Thiel’s? I assume I would get Better performance from the Thiel’s on the Classé vs. the SX-980.
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Don't concern yourself with "doubling" it's largely a red herring. That is not to say there is no merit to a quality amp, but the doubling aspect is oversold/overhyped. Give a go with your Pioneer and work from there if you feel necessary.

The Pioneer won't have enough balls to operate these speakers at their maximum, but that's largely a factor of how hard you push them. If your general listening requirements aren't raising the roof it may be just fine.

The caveat is as always, if at any point of playback level something doesn't sound right (sounds "flat" as in non-dynamic, harsh, or speakers are making odd noises e.g. popping or clunking sounds) back off the volume.
 
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A decent option, but at that price I think you can do better. As whoaru99 pointed out, your Pioneer will get you started, just don't go nuts. Take the time to research and shop around.

Doubling down, like most things in this hobby, is only part of the picture. Basically it gives you some insight into how good the power supply is (voltage sag at full power) and is the output stage robust enough to handle high current.
 
A salient point is if you want/need 200W at 4 ohms (for example) you don't need an amp that does 100@8 and 200@4. An amp with a rating of 200W @ 4 is inherently capable of "halfing up" just fine.
 
[Edit: Crossposted with the above, totally agree with that]

It's really a continuum with 'doubling', it's not a bright line. When comparing amps you can look at the ratio of output wattage at 8 ohms and 4 ohms. For example the SX1250 (which I own and drove the mighty AR9's with - for a short while) is 165 wpc at 8 ohms and 200 wpc at 4 ohms. Pioneers (at least, the SXs) are great equipment but just not very happy with lower impedance loads. Just the way they are. Anyway don't worry about achieving doubling, but compare amps and go for something with a better ratio than the 980, would be my advice.
 
I should have joined this website/forum a long time ago. I appreciate the diversity of opinions and factual information, everyone. I will be patient and wait until my SX-980 is recapped, and give the Thiel’s a test drive on that receiver, especially since I won’t be listening at excessive volume.
 
I initially drove my 3.5's with an 80 wpc Kenwood (approx. 120 at 4 ohms). I moved up to a Yamaha M85 at 325wpc / 4 ohms (I think) and a Denon POA-2200 at about the same power. I could tell a difference and I mostly listen at low volume levels, with the M85 being the most suitable across the decibel spectrum for the Thiels.
 
If there was a difference at low level it was sonic characteristic inherent to one of the amps, not anything to do with power. Of course, meaning that you were not exceeding the capability of the less powerful amp.

Vague definitions of "low level", "not very loud", "turned up a bit, but not too much" sort of thing are largely meaningless in defining what sort of power one might actually need. And, of course, the dynamic range of the music factors too. At some point of output, playing a track with 20dB dynamic range requires a more powerful amp than something with 6dB dynamic range.
 
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