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Thorens TD-125 MkII vs. Dual 1019

DCH

DCH

Well-Known Member
This should be a no-brainer, right? The Thorens should crush the older, more complicated, much cheaper Dual in sound, right?

So why does it sound like my Dual is the superior performer?

I'm listening to The Raconteurs Consolers of the Lonely album from the Third Man Records vault, comparing a few sounds. First was a brief external-vs-integrated phono preamp, with my Pioneer SX-737's onboard phono stage vs. an external Pro-Ject Phono Box DC. External won. Somewhat unsurprising.

Next was table vs. table. The Dual punches you in the face with authority, but doesn't seem to be losing any clarity whatsoever. It just sounds amazing (with an original Shure M75E-D19 that, like the deck, was serviced and rebuilt by Bill at FixMyDual).

The Thorens sounds... fine. Nice. Clear, easy, but it's not kicking my ass like the Dual was (and I mean that in the best possible way). Running a Grado Silver, I believe.

So I'm wondering, what the what, you know? The Dual is this tank of a changer and it's putting the screws to the celebrated Thorens.

I wonder if I just need a better cart for my Thorens, or if I'm just partial to the punch of a well-maintained idler drive over a belt drive.

Obligatory deck pics (and yes, I'm playing the Thorens with the dust cover closed... it hits the TV mounted above it and won't open enough to stay open. I'll get something to prop it with, maybe that'll change my view of the sound):

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I own a TD-125 Mk1 and two Dual 1019's. I don't disagree with anything you said about the 1019, but I'm surprised the TD-125 Mk2 is disappointing you. What arm and cartridge does it have? Are you comparing apples to apples?

Ray K
 
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vinylrayk said:
I own a TD-125 Mk1 and two Dual 1019's. I don't disagree with anything you said about the 1019, but I'm surprised the TD-125 Mk2 is disappointing you. What arm and cartridge does it have? Are you comparing apples to apples?

Ray K
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It's not disappointing me so much as falling short of the punch of the Dual. I've got the standard TP-16 arm and what I think is a Grado Silver (can't find a model on it, it's black on the front with a silver body). I did notice a buildup of dust down near the cantilever, which I've brushed out gently with a stylus brush. That might have something to do with it.
 
Gotta use the same cartridge on each table, if they are of proper compliance for the arm in use.

I lost my Dual 1219/Stanton 681EE and a while later I replaced it with a TD-125II SME 3009 4000D/III. This was a very noticeable giant jump up in sound quality but the rest of the rig was different, too. I've had manual tables since then as I appreciate what a well designed tonearm can bring to whatever table it is bolted to.

But those Dual tables, that one was top of the line, can be very good.
 
Blue Shadow said:
Gotta use the same cartridge on each table, if they are of proper compliance for the arm in use.

I lost my Dual 1219/Stanton 681EE and a while later I replaced it with a TD-125II SME 3009 4000D/III. This was a very noticeable giant jump up in sound quality but the rest of the rig was different, too. I've had manual tables since then as I appreciate what a well designed tonearm can bring to whatever table it is bolted to.

But those Dual tables, that one was top of the line, can be very good.
Click to expand...
I wish I could but the Shure I think is specific to the Dual, it's the one with springs to help it stay level to multiple heights of stacked albums
 
Agreed, those Dual 1019 (I have two) can sound pretty darn good. A 10 inch platter, a short stubby arm, idler wheel drive. who would have thought such could hold its own against modern belt drive turntables but such is the case in my own system. 20190517_160911.jpg
 
DCH said:
I wish I could but the Shure I think is specific to the Dual, it's the one with springs to help it stay level to multiple heights of stacked albums
Click to expand...
That just means you can't use the Shure for the comparison. It is part of the sound quality equation, though.

Maybe get a brand new M something and a couple headshells, now there is a financial committment to hear the differences cause the TP are shells are spendy, the cartridge is a number more bucks and then a sled for the Dual...even more.

I see why you aren't going to do that.
 
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Quite apart from differences in arm and cart there is the issue of suspension set up. On a 125 if that isn't just right they don't really sound all that good. Sad truth. A Dual can sound pretty "zippy" and maybe that is where your preferences lie as well perhaps?
 
I'm wondering if a Denon DL-110 instead of my unknown Grado would make the difference. I'll check on the suspension, but it should be decently set.
 
Well, this evening the Thorens is singing much more definitively. I got a bunch of fluff out of the base of the stylus with a gentle use of a stylus brush and propped the dust cover open. Boston sounds like they're in my room.

Two great tables. I have first-world problems galore.
 
I've had my Thorens TD-125 MkII for several years now. And over that time, I've used a few cartridges. I even bought a spare headshell for the Thorens TP-16 arm so I could swap out carts more easily.

That stock tonearm is fairly massive at 16.5 grams. The Grado shouldn't really like that much mass but I've read of other users who like to use Grado carts on that arm. I went in a different direction and looked for cartridges that prefer mass. To me, the AT-7V sounds pretty good mounted on that arm. The Denon DL-110 HOMC was a step up from the AT. But it was when I went to a Denon DL-103 LOMC cartridge that I knew my cartridge search was over. I love the 103 on that turntable. But some people do not, so YMMV.

Good to hear that your 125 is singing.
 
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DCH said:
I got a bunch of fluff out of the base of the stylus with a gentle use of a stylus brush and propped the dust cover open. I have first-world problems galore.
Click to expand...
I think filth getting in the way of life can be a world wide problem Some just learn to cope with it better.

Glad you got that nail clean. Now when you get a nice cartridge designed for the mass of the arm that TD may just come alive.
 
I really think that the Grado is holding back your TD 125. They prefer a lower mass arm. I have great luck with vintage Shure V15 Type 3, 4 and 5, as well as Stanton 681 EEE (but not the 881S). Some modern cartridges designed for the current crop of medium mass arms should work too - just be sure you can mount them from the bottom for the TP16's headshell.
 
My experience has been that idlers in good shape will beat belt drive's for pure punch pretty much every time. I don't have a Thorens, but I do have a Morinified AR XA, and a Fairchild 412. Both are wonderful tables that I could live with forever. But I prefer my idler's(Garrard Lab 80, Elac Miracord 50H II and, yes, a Dual 1019) over them.

I do also think for the OP that cartridge choice is making a difference. The Shure is an excellent, lively sounding cartridge that is a perfect match for the Dual, while the Grado might be a little more polite with what is already a very good, but more polite sounding table. I bet a Shure M75/91, or even M55 would sound great on the Thorens.
 
ranch 22b said:
I've had my Thorens TD-125 MkII for several years now. And over that time, I've used a few cartridges. I even bought a spare headshell for the Thorens TP-16 arm so I could swap out carts more easily.

That stock tonearm is fairly massive at 16.5 grams. The Grado shouldn't really like that much mass but I've read of other users who like to use Grado carts on that arm. I went in a different direction and looked for cartridges that prefer mass. To me, the AT-7V sounds pretty good mounted on that arm. The Denon DL-110 HOMC was a step up from the AT. But it was when I went to a Denon DL-103 LOMC cartridge that I knew my cartridge search was over. I love the 103 on that turntable. But some people do not, so YMMV.

Good to hear that your 125 is singing.
Click to expand...
With the 103 I'd need something to step up the output, as it's a low-output, correct? I've never ventured into MC carts before... I've read the 110 can play fine into a MM preamp, and I guess my Phono Box DC is both MM and MC, I just want to make sure I could actually fit that into my system.
 
OK, so now I'm at the point of cart recommendations, apparently. I can get a DL 110 or 103 off Amazon for roughly half the price of what I'm seeing V15 3-5's going for on eBay. I'm leaning the 103. My preamp should be able to deal with it, and it's got glowing conversations...

Alternatively, I have a Shure M91 with a new Jico stylus on my Pioneer, and I don't run the Pioneer that often... and have a second headshell with a AT95 for it...
 
DCH said:
OK, so now I'm at the point of cart recommendations, apparently. I can get a DL 110 or 103 off Amazon for roughly half the price of what I'm seeing V15 3-5's going for on eBay. I'm leaning the 103. My preamp should be able to deal with it, and it's got glowing conversations...

Alternatively, I have a Shure M91 with a new Jico stylus on my Pioneer, and I don't run the Pioneer that often... and have a second headshell with a AT95 for it...
Click to expand...

I would definitely try the M91 on the Thorens since you have it. FWIW my experience with the V15's was I really like the II, but didn't like the III or IV. Again, a little too polite for my taste.
 
DCH said:
OK, so now I'm at the point of cart recommendations, apparently. I can get a DL 110 or 103 off Amazon for roughly half the price of what I'm seeing V15 3-5's going for on eBay. I'm leaning the 103. My preamp should be able to deal with it, and it's got glowing conversations...

Alternatively, I have a Shure M91 with a new Jico stylus on my Pioneer, and I don't run the Pioneer that often... and have a second headshell with a AT95 for it...
Click to expand...

Try the M91. It's a pretty forgiving cartridge in terms of arm matching. It won't give you the clarity or detail of the better Shures, but it should be nice. I never tried one with a Jico stylus though. You may be able to get a nice Shure Type 4 for under $200 if you are patient. The brush on the stylus assembly will help with arm compatibility matching.
 
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