Can I please get some advice? I recently purchased a Thorens TD124 that has a SME 3012 tonearm on it. I was wondering what I should look at first before trying to play it? I heard that the Garrard 301 was a better turntable but I couldn't find a good enough deal so I settled on the Thorens. I hope I didn't over pay for it either? Lol. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
Thorens TD124 with sme 3012
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Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
The 124 is a highly regarded table in its own right, and hte 3012 is valued by many vintage aficionados. Many would say you did not settle for second best.
maxhifi
Addicted Member
I have the same combo and love it.
You need to check the belt and idler, and make sure it is lubricated. I'd also lubricate the motor if not done recently. The rubber mushrooms are likely squashed, I replaced mine with an artists eraser cut into blocks.
The 3012 counterweight extension is held to the arm with a rubber insert which deteriorates over time. I called SME and ordered a new one. It is a simple job and is needed if the counterweight sags.
You then need to consider cartridges and also the plinth. Sky is the limit for both. I made a plinth out of maple, and use a Nagaoka MP-200.
You need to check the belt and idler, and make sure it is lubricated. I'd also lubricate the motor if not done recently. The rubber mushrooms are likely squashed, I replaced mine with an artists eraser cut into blocks.
The 3012 counterweight extension is held to the arm with a rubber insert which deteriorates over time. I called SME and ordered a new one. It is a simple job and is needed if the counterweight sags.
You then need to consider cartridges and also the plinth. Sky is the limit for both. I made a plinth out of maple, and use a Nagaoka MP-200.
Very good advice. I really appreciate it
tnsilver
Stereo Puppy
Congrats! I have the same setup in my main sys. Early series II 3012 with stainless steel armtube, heavy CW and double riders. Running a DL-103R. Loving it!
audiocrzy
Super Member
The 301 is not better. Just overpriced! You have an excellent piece of vintage stereo equipment in the 124.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
The 301 is not overpriced. And it has a better motor. The TD-124 is excellent, among the best turntables ever built (but still needed a hysteresis-synchronous motor like the 301 to be the best). A Bodine or Ashland hysteresis-synchronous motor is the best any idler drive turntable can ever get. The SME 3012 transcription tonearm is a gem, one of the finest ever built. Overall, your combo in top working condition is superb.
tnsilver
Stereo Puppy
Why is that - more torque? quieter? durability? What is the criteria for being the 'best'?
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Speed accuracy, durability, more stable operation first record or the last, not needing 30-45 minutes of warm up time in the winter before you can play a record. I love the TD-124 greatly, but the examples I have been exposed to needed 30 minutes minimum to get speed settled in before first record of the morning. I am sure a motor cleaning and overhaul could get this a little bit better. I say this as a TD-124 fanatic, by the way.
maxhifi
Addicted Member
Because a synchronous motor's speed is locked to the grid frequency, whereas an induction motor has "slip", so the speed varies slightly with loading.
Because of this, the TD124 takes about 20 minutes for the speed to become perfectly stable as all the bearings warm up and the loading on the motor drifts (and even did this when new according to magazine reports from the time).
Oops I see Kent posted at the same time.. anyway yeah I like my 124 too and will be never sell it but I'd trade it if someone offered me a perfect 301
MRL_Audio
RIP 2022
Have two of these. Both have been reconditioned and both still take time to stabilize. I learned to live it. Small inconvenience.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
A photo of your newly acquired 124 would certainly be appreciated by many. What will the associated equipment that its going to be used with? Does this table have the OEM hollow box plinth? If so will you be considering an upgrade, as many folks have achieved significant improvements in sound quality with a higher mass plinth for the 124. Has the table been serviced lately, and if so by who and with what parts? Inquiring AKers want to know!!!
tnsilver
Stereo Puppy
Yes, this is all known issues. Actually, synchronous motors that are locked to the power grid frequency sustain the utility company's whims and daily fluctuations. They're not 100% stable either. The induction motor's slip and load sensitivity in this application (TD-124/E50 motor) becomes stable once it reaches optimal temperature, which is, BTW, rather low (around 70°C). My overhauled early E50 motor takes about 20 minutes to warm up and apparently stabilize on the strobe, but 40 minutes to comply with RPM measurements (no, not with a dang phone app, but with a real RPM reader).
It is said Thorens had developed the TD-124 as a (panicky) response to the introduction of the 301 by the Brits in 1956. While most of the research was concentrated on the idler/belt drive system, the E50 motor was originally an off-the-shelf fan motor. I'm not sure if they'd customized it or just installed it as is, but they have introduced larger coils on later runs. Whatever the story is - it does the job 60 years later.
I'm far from offended by another competitor's motor being considered 'the best', but the one thing the E50 motor excels in - is running quiet! I've never compared it to a 301 motor (I don't have one) but I'd be awfully surprised if it would beat the E50 on that front.
As per the relatively long warm up period... While it is an annoyance to some degree in home usage, it comes with the territory. This TT was not designed for the small to average any town USA radio station, where the DJ was often the tech, commercials narrator, manager and owner, it was designed with the large European studios like the BBC and ARD in mind. In theory, this thing would had never been shut off cold other than for semi-annual maintenance. So, yeah, I can live with it.
maxhifi
Addicted Member
The 301 motor and the way it is suspended by springs is a work of art, it's the only piece of gear I've ever repaired where giving it back to the customer made me feel sad to see it go.
I wouldn't think of this as a competition but rather that both Garrard and Thorens both made fantastic early turntables which still hold up today. They're both impressive works of engineering and craftsmanship
adnick
Addicted Member
Have the 301 motor and grease bearing spindle in my Garrard model Ta and no it’s not quieter, in fact I’m assuming that’s why they designed and implemented the motor cradle for the 301.
One would have to define the criteria for which motor is better by application, or intended use. Obviously Thorens went through a huge amount of engineering ingenuity to use the motor they selected ( the clutch system is an example).
Have several tables with giant synchronous (H) motors and really like them, but don’t think they are superior just because of the motor, after all, they and the TD124 are all still going after 60 plus years
When first produced the Rek O Kut Rondine Deluxe had less rumble than the Garrard 301, one has to do a bit of massaging to each in order to bring out their best numbers.
My TD124 requires a bit of time to get solid speed, however it’s not off enough after 60 seconds or so to be a listening distraction, it’s always just a tiny bit fast, then settles down. In fact I’ve massaged the my TD124 into the quietest idler table in my collection, but that took considerable time and effort.
If I were a disc jockey then my ROK TR 43 (H) would be my hands down choice probably tied with the Russco Studio Pro, but for home use it’s more of a toss up
and I’m keeping all of them
VR
Andy
One would have to define the criteria for which motor is better by application, or intended use. Obviously Thorens went through a huge amount of engineering ingenuity to use the motor they selected ( the clutch system is an example).
Have several tables with giant synchronous (H) motors and really like them, but don’t think they are superior just because of the motor, after all, they and the TD124 are all still going after 60 plus years
When first produced the Rek O Kut Rondine Deluxe had less rumble than the Garrard 301, one has to do a bit of massaging to each in order to bring out their best numbers.
My TD124 requires a bit of time to get solid speed, however it’s not off enough after 60 seconds or so to be a listening distraction, it’s always just a tiny bit fast, then settles down. In fact I’ve massaged the my TD124 into the quietest idler table in my collection, but that took considerable time and effort.
If I were a disc jockey then my ROK TR 43 (H) would be my hands down choice probably tied with the Russco Studio Pro, but for home use it’s more of a toss up
and I’m keeping all of themVR
Andy
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Yes, this is all known issues. Actually, synchronous motors that are locked to the power grid frequency sustain the utility company's whims and daily fluctuations. They're not 100% stable either. The induction motor's slip and load sensitivity in this application (TD-124/E50 motor) becomes stable once it reaches optimal temperature, which is, BTW, rather low (around 70°C). My overhauled early E50 motor takes about 20 minutes to warm up and apparently stabilize on the strobe, but 40 minutes to comply with RPM measurements (no, not with a dang phone app, but with a real RPM reader).
It is said Thorens had developed the TD-124 as a (panicky) response to the introduction of the 301 by the Brits in 1956. While most of the research was concentrated on the idler/belt drive system, the E50 motor was originally an off-the-shelf fan motor. I'm not sure if they'd customized it or just installed it as is, but they have introduced larger coils on later runs. Whatever the story is - it does the job 60 years later.
I'm far from offended by another competitor's motor being considered 'the best', but the one thing the E50 motor excels in - is running quiet! I've never compared it to a 301 motor (I don't have one) but I'd be awfully surprised if it would beat the E50 on that front.
As per the relatively long warm up period... While it is an annoyance to some degree in home usage, it comes with the territory. This TT was not designed for the small to average any town USA radio station, where the DJ was often the tech, commercials narrator, manager and owner, it was designed with the large European studios like the BBC and ARD in mind. In theory, this thing would had never been shut off cold other than for semi-annual maintenance. So, yeah, I can live with it.
BBC didn't use the TD-124 or Mk II except for BBC Local Radio original installations. The BBC itself used Garrard 301 from their introduction until they installed Technics SP-10 Mk II turntables. But also consider that the BBC didn't also have fast paced formats. The Garrard 301 did get used in the USA in broadcasting sometimes (AM mainly, but they were fine for FM use as was the TD-124 Mk II, and used for early Stereo stations. Fun fact, ta pair of TD-124 Mk II was what the station I used to engineer for had for their original FM studio installation in 1967 (WUUU-FM 94.3 in Oak Ridge, TN). Fine for that job which didn't entail fast cueing and looser format. These TD-124 Mk II turntables used SME 3009 II tonearms, with Stanton 680 EE cartridges. We later switched to the Shure V 15 Type III. They mainly played Beautiful Music when the tape automation equipment had a melt down. And we had a pair of ReVox A 77 1/2 track machines for use when this happened (with emergency music programming).
twiiii
Lunatic Member
Motor isolation is the biggest issue. So get some new isolation mounts for the motor, A new drive puck s essential, too. Other wise if your speakers reach down to below 20 HZ you will see your woofers flopping around because of the LF noise the 124 generates. Its rumble figure w as just barely -45 db according to the NAB when new back in the day. Thats why I went from my 121 to a 125. - 67db rumble was easy to achieve with the 125. Wow and flutter was a lot lower too. You didn't have to worry about acoustic feed back with the 125, which was a big issue for me with a TD 124 and a SME 3009 arm at the time.