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Thorens TD150 MK 1 tp13 tonearm help

Alfmonster

Alfmonster

Active Member
Hi,

I have a Thorens TD150 mki with the stock TP13 tonearm. It’s fitted with the Shure v15iii cart/stylus.

For some reason I can hear every tap/touch of the tonearm itself. I’m wondering if anyone has had similar issues? Or might have an idea as to why this might be happening?
 
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Alfmonster said:
For some reason I can hear every tap/touch of the tonearm itself. I’m wondering if anyone has had similar issues? Or might have an idea as to why this might be happening?
Click to expand...

What are you hearing? A mechanical or an electric noise? A bad ground connection to the arm makes for a loud crackle whenever you touch a metal surface of the arm.
 
tothmes said:
What are you hearing? A mechanical or an electric noise? A bad ground connection to the arm makes for a loud crackle whenever you touch a metal surface of the arm.
Click to expand...

What i'm hearing is an amplification of any taps or touch that happen on the arm. On my SME3009 its usually just around the cart/needle that any tap or touch gets amplified but not the tonearm.

I made a video of tapping on the tone arm and. although I'm not sure this is clear in the video, the sound is being amplified through the speakers.
Thanks again for replying:

 
I'd say that's pretty normal. You are using your cartridge as a seismograph, hearing the signal generated by the vibrations.
 
I would suggest more isolation of the table and possibly a bit more mass added at your headshell. Suspended tables can be finnicky but still be fun...Clean all connections at the cart pins, headshell insert pins and socket, as well as RCA cabling connections. Hopefully, that will quiet her down.

I notice my 150 Mk I platter matt has stiffened. That could also add to the mechanical noise you are hearing, as can a lack of oil or thick oil in the spindle...Good Luck...
 
One possibility: Some of these old thorens arms can have loose mechanical connections, as the counterweight, loose screws at the headshell, and such. Anything like that would of course amplify any vibrations, both from the record and from outside. But I can't say I was worried about what I heard on your video. It seemed to be about what one would expect from what you were doing. Or can you hear any extra noise when listening to records?
 
Thanks for all of the advice. I’m going to give all of these suggestions a try tomorrow.

@tubeactive do you just use DeOxit to clean the head shell and pins? Do you recommend using something different for cleaning the cart/socket?

@tothmes there is a little extra noise that happens at the runoff where I can kind of hear (for a lack of better words) the hollowness of the arm tube.
My SME3009 doesn’t do the same when I touch the armtube.

The Thorens is quite old so it could very well be that the some wiring is loose in the tonearm.
Regardless, I’ll try all the suggested fixes and hopefully that will do the trick!
 
[QUOTE="tubeactive do you just use DeOxit to clean the head shell and pins? Do you recommend using something different for cleaning the cart/socket?

tothmes there is a little extra noise that happens at the runoff where I can kind of hear (for a lack of better words) the hollowness of the arm tube.
My SME3009 doesn’t do the same when I touch the armtube.[/QUOTE]

Use DeOxit or similar for the cart connectors too. I cut a toothpick, round or triangular depending on the shape of the connectors, to a shape fitting into them. Add a drop of DeOxit to the connector, and rub its insides clean. Same thing with the head shell connectors in the arm - use the end of a toothpick. On some connectors I may use a fine lapping film. What's important is to never use anything abrasive or metallic, since that will cause irreparable damage to the plating on the connectors. It may make for a temporary improvement, but far worse problems later on. Some recommend using rubber erasers, but I don't like the idea of applying a rubber coating to a connector, and the rougher rubbers are too abrasive. Wood gives a good polishing surface, and won't leave any residual.

Your SME arm tube has a built in damper, commonly made out of balsa. The Thorens arm is just a plain tube, which explains the difference. I keep a td-150mII as one of my reference machines, and what you describe is exactly how my arm behaves. I think it is quite normal for that model, especially when handling the arm in or out of the arm mount.
 
tothmes said:
[QUOTE="tubeactive do you just use DeOxit to clean the head shell and pins? Do you recommend using something different for cleaning the cart/socket?

tothmes there is a little extra noise that happens at the runoff where I can kind of hear (for a lack of better words) the hollowness of the arm tube.
My SME3009 doesn’t do the same when I touch the armtube.
Click to expand...

Use DeOxit or similar for the cart connectors too. I cut a toothpick, round or triangular depending on the shape of the connectors, to a shape fitting into them. Add a drop of DeOxit to the connector, and rub its insides clean. Same thing with the head shell connectors in the arm - use the end of a toothpick. On some connectors I may use a fine lapping film. What's important is to never use anything abrasive or metallic, since that will cause irreparable damage to the plating on the connectors. It may make for a temporary improvement, but far worse problems later on. Some recommend using rubber erasers, but I don't like the idea of applying a rubber coating to a connector, and the rougher rubbers are too abrasive. Wood gives a good polishing surface, and won't leave any residual.

Your SME arm tube has a built in damper, commonly made out of balsa. The Thorens arm is just a plain tube, which explains the difference. I keep a td-150mII as one of my reference machines, and what you describe is exactly how my arm behaves. I think it is quite normal for that model, especially when handling the arm in or out of the arm mount.[/QUOTE]

this is really really helpful and reassuring that the tonearm is working properly. Didn’t realize the SME had a dampener in it. Thank you!!

Although I had kept the tp13 for cost reasons - with hopes of upgrading in the future, I’ve been quite impressed with the tp13/Shure v15iii/jico sas combo. And in a lot of ways, the look of the arm has also started growing on me. Since you have also a stock arm, (TP13a?) have you found any other carts that have really worked well with the TA?
 
@tnsilver what a catch! I took the headshell off to clean the contacts and saw that the glue of the cart had come loose and had caused the internals to slightly separated from the metal sleeve. When I pushed that back in the arm is now completely silent!
Any recommendations on how glue to use to reconnect it? I did some research and it seems when this happens, an issue with the right channel going out seems to appear. With mine, it seems consistently with all the records the right channel is a touch weaker than the left.
 
@Alfmonster , I never use DeOxit as a go to for cleaning contacts. Too many of their varieties insert and leave an oily residue, sometimes not effective with older switches, which need thorough cleaning first. I use no liquids near the cartridge, only for cleaning the contacts with a moist Qtip, (while the cart rests vertically above the contacts, so the 91 to 99% isopropyl I use can only drizzle down stream).
When the connections are clean and dry, I re-connect and assure good continuity, with a listen. Then, I might coat the connection with a bit of deoxit. That should last for a few more years...until the cycle continues...
 
Alfmonster said:
With mine, it seems consistently with all the records the right channel is a touch weaker than the left.
Click to expand...
Disconnect the cart and measure the resistance on the pins of the right channel (red/green) vs. the left channel (white/blue). It should show a few hundreds ohms and match quite closely. If it doesn't - the cart is faulty. If it does, the problem could be anywhere in the cabling, amplification or even due to anti-skate settings.
 
@tnsilver I just did a measurement and it seems the numbers are a little off. The right channel is at 1.416 (red/green) and the left (white/blue) is at 1.391.

update: I just cleaned the contacts as @tubeactive and @tothmes suggested with 99% iso alcohol and both channels are coming in more evenly! Although it’s obvious now thinking of it, didn’t realize this would make such a difference. I think it’s good enough for now, and I’ll get a replacement when the current Shure v15 cart really starts messing up.

Thank you once again everyone for the helping me with the TP13 arm tube/channel issues. Sounds (surprisingly) amazing now - better than my TP13/TD150mki has ever sounded…and with such simple fixes.
 
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tnsilver said:
Is that one ohm and change or did you mean one thousand four hundred ohms and change? If the later - it's close enough (quite good actually).
Click to expand...

I double checked again to be sure and it appears it’s one thousand four hundred. Since learning the method of how to measure resistance of the cart from your post , I checked my other Shure v15iii cart (attached to the SME) which read similarly at 1.39k each channel. Am thrilled actually to learn that the readings from both (especially the V15 attached to the TP13) mean they are in good shape!
 
Alfmonster said:
Although I had kept the tp13 for cost reasons - with hopes of upgrading in the future, I’ve been quite impressed with the tp13/Shure v15iii/jico sas combo. And in a lot of ways, the look of the arm has also started growing on me. Since you have also a stock arm, (TP13a?) have you found any other carts that have really worked well with the TA?
Click to expand...

Mine is the later version of the arm, the "Kugelarm", which also has anti-skating. Both versions are much better medium-weight arms than they may look like. I've used mine mostly with Ortofon OM versions, om-5, om-20, om-40. Works as a charm with all of these, despite what can be read at uninformed corners of the interwebs. Since your arm doesn't have any anti-skating, I'd probably rather use a heavier tracking cart with it, since those are less sensitive for skating forces. But that would be my only marginal note on the choice of carts.

There are a couple of points worth considering with these arms. First, they are mounted to the arm board with rubber (now hardened) grommets. Remove those, they were a misconceived idea to begin with. They were meant to isolate the arm from motor and floor vibrations, but instead made for worsened coupling for the cart vibrations out from the arm, and lost stability in the arm mount - both causing losses in dynamics and timing. Second, the vertical bearings are often badly adjusted after years of abuse, and were pretty rough to begin with. I always open the bearings, clean the cups and ball retaining rings with ipo or similar, and polish the bearing cones. Put it all together again, and adjust the bearings. Never any oil in these kinds of tonearm bearings. With that done, these arms arms should satisfy most real world listeners. If it doesn't, it's time to move on to another turntable.
 
Alfmonster said:
Am thrilled actually to learn that the readings from both (especially the V15 attached to the TP13) mean they are in good shape!
Click to expand...
It just means the cart coils are not shorted or broken, which is a crucial indication in determining carts health, but there's other factors at hand too.
 
tnsilver said:
It just means the cart coils are not shorted or broken, which is a crucial indication in determining carts health, but there's other factors at hand too.
Click to expand...
@tnsilver what do the different ohm readings mean from coils in one cart to the next? For example v15 seems to both read in at 1.4k ohms and I did a reading of an audio technica at140lc which gave me a reading of 780ohms each channel. Do the higher ohm readings speak to coils in one brand of carts having superior quality to than the other?
 
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