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Time to commit to 6922/7308s ! What do you think of,..

B

Bambi B

Member
Fellow Karmites,

It appears that prices for NOS members of the 6DJ8 family- ECC88/ 6DJ8, E88CC/ 6922, E188CC/ 7308, and 6H23n-EB are going bonkers with good examples of 6922 and 7308 regularily over $100 each. In fact, about all the premium versions of NOS tubes seem to be launching into the stratosphere- Just last week, I saw $1,500 ! for a pair of NOS Telefunken ECC803S (12AX7), $143 for a single Valvo 6201, and $104 for a single early Amperex 7316.

With the 6DJ8 family, I have a problem as my Audio Research SP10- like the Audible Illusions M3, pushes the tubes along and only the toughest E88CC, E188CC, and 6H23n-EB (this is the real dersignation for the Sovtek and EH 6922s) will survive for every long.

Searching various forums, I've come across comments concering the Tungsram (Hungary) E88CC / 6922, as very tough- surviving in the AI M3, and some people who think the sound rivals the Siemens E88CC. They are supposed to be among the quietest also. The thing is, few people seem to be paying attention to the Tungsram and I'm seeing NOS pairs going on Ebay for $30-40. There a dealer wanting $70+ each, but these are selected and graded.

I don't mean to be the cheapskate, especially as I want the SP10 to remain in or close as possible to the "best phono preamp ever" category, but it uses 12 of the 6DJ8 family with 6 of those critical gain tubes. My idea is to use 4 or 6 NOS E188CC in the critical first gain positions , and the other 6 or 8 possibly as Tungsram.

The fall back, of course, is always the rugged Sovtek or EH- which are really not so bad, but certainly no comment Ive seen denies that the Tungsram is an all round better sounding tube.

If Tungsrams are $15-20 each they're really not terribly more expensive than the Sovtek/EH- well, I suppose $3 or $8 is a big proportion increase on a $12 tube, but not a lot in total Dollars over time if there are noticeable sonic advantages.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Cheers,

Bambi B

[Oracle Delphi III / SME V, McIntosh MR67, Cambridge Audio 640C > Audio Research SP10 > Audio Research D115 > Vandersteen 2C]
 
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hey-Hey!!!,
The single solution is to get a pre that doesn't use such expensive tubes, and doesn't beat them up. I have never built with that tube family in a pre, and have a hard time believing it is the One True Way to great sound. It has never sounded good in any of my amp's stages. There's got to be a better way...:) unless you're hooked on that Consumerist off-the-rack stuff.
cheers,
Douglas

Try something, with an amp-sized, choke-input, Hg-diode power supply. As to the amplifier...soooo many good choices. 6BL7 maybe? 801A? 6AV5GA pentode? 6DN7?
 
Wow. I don't think the original poster claimed to have the "One True Way to great sound". I think it was more of wanting to start a friendly and informative thread about a class of tubes that MANY people run in their gear. But then again, as I'm sure that as not many people here have "something, with an amp-sized, choke-input, Hg-diode power supply" for their phono pre, so we're probably all deluding ourselves with the big lie that we like the way our stereo systems sound. Or, horror of horrors, some people have a piece of "that Consumerist off-the-rack stuff" that they might actually like. :rolleyes:
 
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Bambi,

I'm trying to track some Tungsram down, I've also heard good comments about this tube. If I ever get lucky, I'll be glad to give my impressions.
 
Generally, I refuse to spend big bucks on a tube when a cheaper one can do the job. I've been disappointed too many times finding gorgeous Amperex PQ / $$$ tubes that sound mediocre or make noise. Furthermore, I don't like listening to an unsustainable amplifier that "requires" old-production tubes to satisfy.

I have four new RCA "W. Germany" tubes that appear to be Tungsram. They sound quite good, and are well-constructed. But I think that the JJ E88CC is also well-worth investigating, for half the price. And the Russian Military 6N23P is a great tube, too, and is probably what your amp was voiced with (AR now uses Russian military tubes extensively). Lately I just keep a cheap NOS Tungsram, GE, or American 7308 in the gain stage of my JuicyMusic Peach, and a pair of JJs or 6N23Ps in the cathode follower section.
 
Hey Mr. Squidward,
There must be *SOME* reason to go feeding a pre tubes it is going to be hard on. Just look at the why's behind it. I know why I build the way I do. I'll let the results speak for themselves. OTOH, I am pretty poor at politely expressing my distain for the idea that the best stuff can be bought.

The 6DJ8 family does look good. Given what the price has risen to, is there reason to continue supporting further actions to drive up the price? I'd certainly hope the goal is getting a good system. I know how I prefer to achieve my system goals. Other folks *WILL* have different goals. That should come as no suprise.

Anyway, getting a tube with the special properties of the 6DJ8 is not easy. These days it is either pay a premium, or make a sub work( perhaps better ). Making the sub work is going to be a lot more interesting than forking out large sacks of cash.
cheers,
Douglas
 
I am sorry if I was a bit harsh in my reply, but the simple discussion of what tube might fit a particular piece of gear should not warrant disdain. A discussion of the less expensive alternates would be a good and constructive thing. If you have a phono pre idea in mind, go ahead and start a thread. I for one would be interested in seeing the design, etc. I'm sure I have a lot to learn.
 
The Audio Research SP10 : Hell of the 6DJ8 family made glourious Heaven

PakProtector,

Thank you for your comments.

You're right to question the sanity of pursuing a tube type that presents so many difficulties, but because of the high proportion of the subjective component, few things in audio respond to reason.

The thing with me is, I bought the Audio Research SP8 in 1985, and the SP10 and D115 in 1987 and can't seem to ever part with any of them. And, it's these three pieces of stuff that use 17 of the dreaded valves of Satan. And to maintain Chaos, the Devil made it so the phono section of the SP10- which uses 12 E88CC- is 20+ years later still counted among the best 3 or 4 ever made. Sorry to resort to hyperbole, of course, this is only my opinion. The only preamps I know that rival it are the CAT SL-1 and Hovland. Some say the SP10 line stage is nothing special, but in 20 years , I've used it perhaps 200 hours- 10 hours per year- the SP10 phono is just hypnotic! I tried the SP10 briefly with a McIntosh MR67 that was all original- and I had an FM epiphany- the FM broadcast of a CD sounded better than when I play the same disk on a Cambridge Audio 640C !

The SP10 is difficult to retube, and I've gone through long periods when I'm determined to sell it and go back to the SP8- which is quite different and superb in it's own way, but when the SP10 is set up properly with a great phono source, and associated gear, the sound is worth walking with Virgil through all 7 Rings of Hell.

A preamp that inspires description in a quasi-religious tone, citation of Dante, and displaying dangerous levels of obsession and hyperbole has to be worth a little valve anxiety!

Cheers,

Bambi B
 
Bambi B said:
PakProtector,

Thank you for your comments.

You're right to question the sanity of pursuing a tube type that presents so many difficulties, but because of the high proportion of the subjective component, few things in audio respond to reason.

The thing with me is, I bought the Audio Research SP8 in 1985, and the SP10 and D115 in 1987 and can't seem to ever part with any of them. And, it's these three pieces of stuff that use 17 of the dreaded valves of Satan. And to maintain Chaos, the Devil made it so the phono section of the SP10- which uses 12 E88CC- is 20+ years later still counted among the best 3 or 4 ever made. Sorry to resort to hyperbole, of course, this is only my opinion. The only preamps I know that rival it are the CAT SL-1 and Hovland. Some say the SP10 line stage is nothing special, but in 20 years , I've used it perhaps 200 hours- 10 hours per year- the SP10 phono is just hypnotic! I tried the SP10 briefly with a McIntosh MR67 that was all original- and I had an FM epiphany- the FM broadcast of a CD sounded better than when I play the same disk on a Cambridge Audio 640C !

The SP10 is difficult to retube, and I've gone through long periods when I'm determined to sell it and go back to the SP8- which is quite different and superb in it's own way, but when the SP10 is set up properly with a great phono source, and associated gear, the sound is worth walking with Virgil through all 7 Rings of Hell.

A preamp that inspires description in a quasi-religious tone, citation of Dante, and displaying dangerous levels of obsession and hyperbole has to be worth a little valve anxiety!

Cheers,

Bambi B
Click to expand...
I read somewhere many years ago that the reason why ARC went from All tube in the SP10 to a hybrid design in the SP11 was because the really good 6DJ8s were starting to get difficult to source.
 
There's nothing wrong with the military JAN 6922 by Sylvania and Phillips, which have been highly praised in some circles (and I concur) and available on that auction site in quantity at times. A few months ago I also picked up 8 new original Tesla 6DJ8s off eBay from some fellow at a Hungarian technical school for $49.00. They're the ones with the crossed sabers denoting them as Tesla's premium grade tubes. I've rolled them into my Dynaco PAS-4 and they actually sound quite nice.

I've found 6DJ8/ECC88 RCAs that are actually Mullards with the Blackburn date codes and have also come across Amprex 7308s with both green globe and orange globe markings. Very sweet tubes. Don't get me wrong, Telefunkens are nice, but they're not the end all to end all.
 
You could look for one or more old Tektronix 500 series scopes. I stripped one (a 565 from memory) ages ago. It was loaded with 6DJ8s. Some places retubed these as part of regular maintenace, so if you find one that was retired not long after it's last service you'd end up with tubes that are almost NOS.
 
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