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To clamp or not to clamp? That is the question.

Citroen

Citroen

2CV
So as not to derail the "If you have a turntable you should have a record clamp thread" http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/in...ntable-you-should-have-a-record-clamp.816837/

There are many reasons to use a record clamp.

1. To flatten a warped record
2. To couple the LP to the platter
3. To add mass to the platter (although this is more through a record weight rather than clamp, or could be through a heavy clamp)
4. Others?

The aim is MAINLY to improve sound quality, but sometimes just to reduce wear and tear on cartridge suspensions (through reduced warps).

I find that with a high mass platter, coupling the LP to the platter is beneficial.

However, with lightweight platters, or platters directly coupled to motors e.g through idler wheels SOMETIMES its better NOT to couple the LP to the platter.

On my Well Tempered Amadeus (light weight platter) no benefit from a clamp.
Garrard 401 great results with a Resomat, no clamp. In fact, no clamp with most mats on this TT.

A lot of variables. And a lot of differing opinions/controversy!

What are your thoughts?
 
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I've always had clamps with my TT's but I am not so zealous about using them. The vast majority of my albums are OK, but a few favorites are warped to the point I can detect an audible thump when the stylus is over the warp. That's when my clamps make a difference. For some reason the bad warps are always on the outer edge of the record, so even my light weight screw-on Bellex clamp does the job right. Since I'm not a big fan of 180g vinyl, it isn't too tough to do the flattening b/c standard 130g vinyl is rather flexible. In other cases with pristine records, I can't really tell the difference between using, or not using any sort of clamp. Needless to say, I don't bother normally.
 
I recently tried a clamp/weight on my DD table and thought it tightened up the bass sounded slightly more dynamic. That said the clamp weighted a bit over a pound and seemed from a mechanical aspect not what I would want to subject my spindle to for extented periods (all the time). I mean it cant be good for the bearing. Now if the TT in question was designed for the added weight thats a different story.
Bottom line - I thought it improved the sound but not enough to risk damage to my 40+ year old table. Bob
 
I read a review somewhere that record clamps used with DD turntables wasn't a good idea because of bearing rumble being transferred into the record. Not sure about that one - surely it doesn't matter what machine you have - Rumble is rumble - all players have spindle bearings.
I noted the point about putting a lot extra weight on to a suspended turntable. I think the bearing would take more mass, but the whole thing could bottom out which kind of destroys the whole point of the suspension. When I put the platter on (1.45kg with mat) I can see the suspension drop about 3mm. Maybe a lightweight clamp is the way to go with DD tables.
I can see the logic in coupling the record to the platter to make a 1.5kg record. Does this coupling work better with a rubber, felt or rigid mat?
 
Hopefully, so we can talk about sound quality, verboten in the other thread. I've had a small plastic clamp forever, a hollow and slightly springy thing from when Radio Shack sold them for $3 or so. I use it only with warped records if it seems to improve things. IMO, there's some happy medium between coupling that's too good, or not good enough. No doubt different in every case. To me, poor coupling makes things tinny. Too much takes the life out of it. Remember the Watts Dust Bug? I can tell you that a record on a normal rubber mat will telegraph the music being played by the dust bug right across the record to the pickup on the other side. All you have to do is put the bug on the outer track and play the lead-in groove at high volume or listen with headphones. I've no doubt better coupling to the platter/mat would reduce or eliminate that. IMO again, mats are a useful fine tuning tool for SQ. I've tried all manner from cork spots to leather and settled on a non-audiophile approved type of shelf liner. Back to the clamp, you can't predict what the mat is going to do if you can't get the record in good contact with it. I liked some of the Sony rubber mats that had very flexible circles that could conform to the record, but if the record is too warped you'd still need a clamp. I think weights, if properly designed, are also useful. As far as rumble, modern platter bearings have near zero rumble. If my tt had audible rumble, I'd fix it or throw it away.
 
CLAMPS !!
1592387-clamps.jpg


I tried a clamp way back when but found I got better results improving the isolation of the table and working on some rough spots in the room (such as a killer standing wave at 160hz) ... a lot of the weirdness was just from room feedback.
 
Citroen said:
What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Well I think one would need to define the difference between a weights and a clamps and what your trying to talk about here. I find most people define it as the same because they don't know the difference. Now we also have many different types of clamps and their effectiveness at clamping and what your clamping for.
 
After reading 4-2-7 thread re using clamps and having a few Orsonic DS-250 clamps myself leads me to believe they can do no harm and more likely a lot of good. The Mitchell and Orsonic are probably the best of the breed.
 
So can I get a light weight clamp for my TT and if so where and what is recommended. Like to try one as long as its not heavy. What does it clamp to-the spindle? Bob
 
If your platter and mat have a depression in the middle part then clamping will just push down the middle and the outer edge of the record will lift off the platter. The middle needs to be slightly higher than the outer part for the clamp to do it's job properly. The Oracles have a washer that goes under the mat for exactly that reason. The clamp on them works wonderfully to keep the record in touch with the mat and platter. A well designed clamp will not be flat on the bottom it will be slightly concave and for the same reasons I have stated above.
 
I’m not sure how we can talk about our hobby/passion or whatever you want to call it without speaking to sound quality. I mean that’s why we are here right??
But that’s what brought me to this thread after reading the other thread. I gave my clamp another try that came with my Marantz TT15S1. To me it sounded well lackluster. Bass was eh and highs/mids are veiled. Norah Jones should ever sound veiled.
I took the clamp up and gave it a shot again. Pure Norah bliss.
For me, no clamp. Proof is in the ear for me.
 
Powertech said:
I can see the logic in coupling the record to the platter to make a 1.5kg record. Does this coupling work better with a rubber, felt or rigid mat?
Click to expand...

Good question.

Generally, I've never had great luck with rubber mats. They seem to suck the life out of the record. With or without a clamp (or weight).
Felt can sound OK but has practical problems with static and dust.
A rigid mat? Usually sounds better to me but that's on TT's that like being coupled, usually heavy mass platters. And generally, I find that a clamp is best with these mats.
 
Rocko81 said:
I’m not sure how we can talk about our hobby/passion or whatever you want to call it without speaking to sound quality. I mean that’s why we are here right??
But that’s what brought me to this thread after reading the other thread. I gave my clamp another try that came with my Marantz TT15S1. To me it sounded well lackluster. Bass was eh and highs/mids are veiled. Norah Jones should ever sound veiled.
I took the clamp up and gave it a shot again. Pure Norah bliss.
For me, no clamp. Proof is in the ear for me.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Sound quality goes hand in hand I believe.
I'm actually surprised that on your TT a clamp doesn't help or at least is neutral.

Is it a flat bottom or reflex clamp? Weight?
 
Citroen said:
Indeed. Sound quality goes hand in hand I believe.
I'm actually surprised that on your TT a clamp doesn't help or at least is neutral.

Is it a flat bottom or reflex clamp? Weight?
Click to expand...

It’s the clever clamp included with the turntable it has a flat bottom. I don’t use any type of mat with my platter.
When I had my Music Hall MMF-7 I tried the clamp they included. With that TT I noticed no difference in sound, which isn’t a bad thing. I did use a leather mat with the Music Hall.
 
In response to the OP's question, "What are your thoughts....."

If it sounds better to YOU, then it IS better for YOU in terms of what YOUR ears hear and how that either makes YOU happy or not. Sound familiar? Likely so, as we often change things up with all sorts of variables with regard to our setups/systems in search of what sounds "better"......to us. A different cartridge, phonostage, cables....etc. etc. the list goes on.

That is why this is soooo darned subjective.....the main thing, and what I learned from that thread on using clamps, is that if I am going to use a clamp that I am indeed using it in a way that actually accomplishes the purpose intended: to flatten the records with slight warps and help to join the record to the platter. For me, this DID improve the sound quality.....for my ears anyhow, but it seems like there are plenty of folks who found the reverse to be true as well. Nothing wrong with that either, long as it puts smiles on lips and makes the listening life better, eh?

My final thought might be, if you are going to use one, use it properly and see if YOU think the sound is better.....or, what the hey, even use it improperly and see what you think.....at the end of the day (which is when I normally listen), all that counts is how your listening either made you happy or not.
 
What I find interesting is people will spend a ton of time setting up VTA and VTF. They will press the importance of micro tuning the VTA, but without a clamp it's changing as the record spins. The record doesn't sit all that flat and each one has different flexing to it. Using a clamp helps to equalize all the records flattening them to the flat platter. However the platter mat might not be all that flat either and using a clamp will help bring everything flat.

VTF isn't as consistent either if the record springs up and down during playback, your applying force to something that isn't stable without a clamp. The clamp is a stabilizer.

If you look at any TOTL table back in the day and even more so today with knowledge gained over the years they all clamp or weight down the record so it's flat.
 
Another consideration in this mix is the mat material. I feel like the best I have used is animal skin. Deer, bovine etc. Little to no static and modest bit of give. Rubber and felt obviously have differing characteristics but both cause static issues for me. One mat I recently picked up was an Oracle unit. Little static, decent give and seems to work well in my environment. Still use a clamp, SOTA, but the combination work well for me so far.
 
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