Took the plunge

[Zamdrang]

Hi all...if you remember my "Mac for Metal" post.... I finally got to a dealer last weekend. I got a great deal on a 6900. Also got to try the 6300, and the 252/C220 and a audio/video player...cant remember which one MVP871 maybe....

Anyway, I liked the 252 the best, but even with considering using my Rotel 1062 as a pre (which they happend to have one to swap in...still sounded GREAT) it was just too much of a stretch so I left with the 6900.

So far in my system, my thoughts are mixed. Im terrible at describing sound so bear with me... The detail is improved, hearing things ive never heard before. Bass is much improved, solid and tight. But the mids are lacking to the point i'd go as far as to say thin and somewhat cold. Its almost identical to my experience with the Stingray. And no amount of eq changes what im talking about...it just IS...if that makes sense.

What comes through is mostly the highs (cymbals, hi hat) and the bass. The mids are way in the back if that makes sense, and the effect of that is fatiguing above low volume. Again....exactly like the Stingray.

My Dalis are laid back, been told probably too polite for my music (metal, rock). I think, and maybe some of you guys can tell me if im on the right track.....the synergy (or lack of) of the mellow Dalis and the laid back Mac create what im talking about. And the Rotel with its upfront presentation tends to "even out" and wake the Dalis up for a more complete overall presentation. Crazy?

Im shocked that I like the Rotel as much, if you scrutinize details it doesnt compare, but overall the music feels more "right" to me.

Im kind of curious as to why the Stingray and 6900 do the same thing with these speakers, its very very similiar.

Im not posting to rag on the Mac, not at all. I like the sound I hear, the highs are nice and smooth, solid bass that stops and starts like ive never heard. If the mids were there i'd be sold. But in my system the Mac has me less enthused then with the Rotel, which is a bummer.

I guess im looking at keeping it and trying a new speaker... Or keeping the Rotel for now.

Im running through an Apollo, and the dealer told me the 6900 had been in the showroom long enough to be run in.

I'd appreciate any input,
Thanks
Tyler

 

[ByteWrangler]

It may be that the sound of the Rotel is what you're used to, and anything different is "wrong". If the bass and highs are much stronger, then the mids, by comparison, must suffer. What doesn't fit is why you can't eq this out if that were the entire problem, so dunno. I presume the source, speakers (and placement), room and seating arrangement are the same; only the amplifier changed.

I, for one, think that the need for "running in" a solid-state amplifier, or most any non-mechanical device (and I'm not sure about speakers, but tubes *might* be an exception) - is complete balderdash. I don't want to turn the discussion to this point, but what I'm trying to say is not to hope the system gets better with time, although you may get used to it - which may be the same thing.

 

[DR. JAM]

Zam,


Try plugging your Mac direct to the wall outlet.

 

[mattj]

try moving your speakers farther off the back wall

 

[Zamdrang]

Hi guys...thanks a bunch for the input.

After more time im fairly convinced its not a case of being "used to" the Rotel. Or speaker positioning. I tried some speaker moves last night, bass changes, highs move around, but mids are the same. I can literally put my ear up to the mid driver and hear (or not hear) whats lacking. AC/DC, Metallica, Priest...u name it...the guitars have a blanket over them.

I grabbed my 15 year old son, with no coaching, put in Megadeth and said "tell me what you hear" His comment... "it sounds like the guitars are in the next room with the door closed"

Mids are not my speaks strong suit, I knew that goin it. I figured the EQ would help. Boosting mid EQ only brings a hollow reverb like tone to the mix, same with the loud button.

Yep my setup is identical, just the new amp. And its plugged directly into the wall.

My question is, am I describing Mac sound at all? I read so much about liquidy mid range etc etc.

Im gonna take it back to the dealer and try it with some of his speaks. He has a nice selection B&W, Dali, Usher and some others.

 

[DR. JAM]

It looks like your bottle neck is your speaks as you have said. I think taking a listen to other speaks will be revealing as to what mac sound really is.

 

[PHC1]

Are you sure you didn't wire the speakers out of phase? Although you said the bass sounds full, I would still double check.

 

[exracer]

Hi guys...thanks a bunch for the input.


Im gonna take it back to the dealer and try it with some of his speaks. He has a nice selection B&W, Dali, Usher and some others.

sounds like a good idea; doesnt make any sense to me. I would like to say the lacking midrange on your speakers balances out the obnoxiously forward Rotel, but that is pure speculation. I dont think the Rotel would sound that bad.

 

[Zamdrang]

Thanks guys. I thought the same on the phase...im good there.

exracer I speculate the same about the Rotel. Ive heard it called bright and obnoxious as well, and would not describe it either way with my Dalis. And no it doesnt sound that bad.

And now with the Mac I speculate, laid back + laid back = toooo laid back....:scratch2:

A question of synergy I suppose.

 

[Zamdrang]

*update* As I said I checked the phase of the connections. But Dr Jam...you got me thinking so I just went to check them again.

I did a little tugging on the connections and boom....the right positive wire (amp side) came right off the damn spade!! :sigh: If it was making a connection at all it was just barely or intermittent with the heatshrink just holding it in it place. :nono:

My pug is geriatric and blind and likes to get up and wander in the middle of the night....maybe I can blame him...

These spade clamps are very thick, anyone had this problem and how did you bend it apart so you could rebend it around the wire? Im mechanically inclined...but a simple pair of pliers *aint* gonna do it...:scratch2:

 

[exracer]

*update* As I said I checked the phase of the connections. But Dr Jam...you got me thinking so I just went to check them again.

I did a little tugging on the connections and boom....the right positive wire (amp side) came right off the damn spade!! :sigh: If it was making a connection at all it was just barely or intermittent with the heatshrink just holding it in it place. :nono:

My pug is geriatric and blind and likes to get up and wander in the middle of the night....maybe I can blame him...

These spade clamps are very thick, anyone had this problem and how did you bend it apart so you could rebend it around the wire? Im mechanically inclined...but a simple pair of pliers *aint* gonna do it...:scratch2:

Dont bother, just use the bare wire. Unless you have good quality cables that are factory terminated this would be a better contact anyway. What kind of speakerwires are these by the way? gauge; make?

However the first frequencies that will suffer by lack of current to the speaker would be the bass, and you said it was okay; the midrange being the problem; so a bad connection doesnt seem like it could be the factor here....

 

[Zamdrang]

I agree, dont think its the root cause of my issue, but I had one of those forehead slap moments u know?

They are Soundstring bi-wires, very thick, factory terminated...at least they were... Not sure on the gauge overall but each amp lead consists of 6 individual 12 or 14 ga. wires. The 6 wires twisted together is at least 2 times thicker then the binding post hole, so bare wire is almost as much pain as trying to recrimp them.

 

[toddmorris]

i do think its the Mac actually. Most Macs I've heard indeed have a strange mid range sound or coloration. Hard to describe but it's there.

 

[exracer]

I agree, dont think its the root cause of my issue, but I had one of those forehead slap moments u know?

They are Soundstring bi-wires, very thick, factory terminated...at least they were... Not sure on the gauge overall but each amp lead consists of 6 individual 12 or 14 ga. wires. The 6 wires twisted together is at least 2 times thicker then the binding post hole, so bare wire is almost as much pain as trying to recrimp them.

hmm, gonna need that spade back on there then. Try heating it up with a torch, and you need a small tool like a pic; those dental tools? or a small screwdriver. Pry it in there and work it open enough to get something larger like a bigger screwdriver in to open it up enough to fit the wire back. Then hopefully you have a crimper with enough leverage to crimp it back on with enough force so that it doesnt come off again. If not bring your wires to home depot, buy one, use it in the parking lot, then return it. .And finally hopfully the metal doesnt crystallize and break where it is to be crimped.

Also let us know when you try the amp with those Ushers at the dealer. :thmbsp:

 

[Zamdrang]

Thanks for the tips on the wires, was able to pry it open enough and with an extra set of hands get it crimped back together.

Yesterday at the dealer we more or less duplicated my system with a 6300 subed for my 6900.

I have to agree with those recommending B&Ws for metal. I really liked the B&W 804S. Initially I found them a tad harsh, a bit extended in the highs and lacking bass. But with some IC swapping the guitars showed up in spades, with grit and punch..and clarity...it was as good as ive heard metal sound. The bass didnt ever get deeper, (im not a deep bass guy anyway), but the mids and highs smoothed out and the sound grabbed me so much I was hooked. The brutalness was there, but clear and musical. Test music was Iced Earth. :thmbsp:

We also tried the 683, it wasnt as good...but I didnt expect it to be. In fact I found it similiar to my Dalis in the presentation of the vocals, and how it felt like there was blanket over everything. But to be fair I think I was spoiled after the 803s. Had I initially gone with 683s i'd be a happier camper, but now probably not better enough to bother with.

We went back to the Dali Helicons and there again was the sound im familiar with, better then mine in every way..but still similiar. My opinion is that Dalis...at least these two..are not rock/metal speakers.

So I have no worries that my "issue" is the Mac. Yes the Mac has its own sound, but I like it. I picked up the ICs (audioquest jaguars) that we ended up with on the B&Ws, and though they dont do exactly the same for my Dalis as they did the B&Ws, they are a good improvment in clarity, particular the upper end.

 

[winston1156]

Thanks for the tips on the wires, was able to pry it open enough and with an extra set of hands get it crimped back together.

Yesterday at the dealer we more or less duplicated my system with a 6300 subed for my 6900.

I have to agree with those recommending B&Ws for metal. I really liked the B&W 804S. Initially I found them a tad harsh, a bit extended in the highs and lacking bass. But with some IC swapping the guitars showed up in spades, with grit and punch..and clarity...it was as good as ive heard metal sound. The bass didnt ever get deeper, (im not a deep bass guy anyway), but the mids and highs smoothed out and the sound grabbed me so much I was hooked. The brutalness was there, but clear and musical. Test music was Iced Earth. :thmbsp:

We also tried the 683, it wasnt as good...but I didnt expect it to be. In fact I found it similiar to my Dalis in the presentation of the vocals, and how it felt like there was blanket over everything. But to be fair I think I was spoiled after the 803s. Had I initially gone with 683s i'd be a happier camper, but now probably not better enough to bother with.

We went back to the Dali Helicons and there again was the sound im familiar with, better then mine in every way..but still similiar. My opinion is that Dalis...at least these two..are not rock/metal speakers.

So I have no worries that my "issue" is the Mac. Yes the Mac has its own sound, but I like it. I picked up the ICs (audioquest jaguars) that we ended up with on the B&Ws, and though they dont do exactly the same for my Dalis as they did the B&Ws, they are a good improvment in clarity, particular the upper end.

Synergy..like two people in a marriage. Sometimes it just don't work.

 

[Drag0nFly]

Thanks for the tips on the wires, was able to pry it open enough and with an extra set of hands get it crimped back together.

Yesterday at the dealer we more or less duplicated my system with a 6300 subed for my 6900.

I have to agree with those recommending B&Ws for metal. I really liked the B&W 804S. Initially I found them a tad harsh, a bit extended in the highs and lacking bass. But with some IC swapping the guitars showed up in spades, with grit and punch..and clarity...it was as good as ive heard metal sound. The bass didnt ever get deeper, (im not a deep bass guy anyway), but the mids and highs smoothed out and the sound grabbed me so much I was hooked. The brutalness was there, but clear and musical. Test music was Iced Earth. :thmbsp:

We also tried the 683, it wasnt as good...but I didnt expect it to be. In fact I found it similiar to my Dalis in the presentation of the vocals, and how it felt like there was blanket over everything. But to be fair I think I was spoiled after the 803s. Had I initially gone with 683s i'd be a happier camper, but now probably not better enough to bother with.

We went back to the Dali Helicons and there again was the sound im familiar with, better then mine in every way..but still similiar. My opinion is that Dalis...at least these two..are not rock/metal speakers.

So I have no worries that my "issue" is the Mac. Yes the Mac has its own sound, but I like it. I picked up the ICs (audioquest jaguars) that we ended up with on the B&Ws, and though they dont do exactly the same for my Dalis as they did the B&Ws, they are a good improvment in clarity, particular the upper end.

I guess these are the first-generation Helicons (800 or 400 btw.?)
Have you done any testing on the lower-end Mentor 8's? I think those might be better suited for your listening purposes. They just got released, and have much of the same technology from the Helicon mkIIs in them, as well as some from Euphonia.