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Topping D50 Too Bright?

mr.muddles

mr.muddles

Super Member
I've had a Topping D50 set up with another pair of speakers for a long time now that have a much smoother analog sound (Pioneer S-T500). Recently I moved the DAC to my other system which I have JBL L7 as my speakers with the titanium dome tweeters -- I had to switch back to the DAC in my Sony DVP-S9000es because I kept getting listening fatigue and found the sound way too bright.

Has anyone noticed this as well? Could just be the recordings I was listening to.. I pretty much only listen to CDs. The D50 has a lot of detail and is very quiet and transparent but kept getting listening fatigue at moderate listening levels wasn't even playing loud.
 
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Likely it's your speakers and or the room. EQ to the rescue, DAC frequency response is flat so unlikely the D50 is at fault. Lookup Harman curve for speakers.
 
gvl said:
Likely it's your speakers and or the room. EQ to the rescue, DAC frequency response is flat so unlikely the D50 is at fault. Lookup Harman curve for speakers.
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I mean, I am sure it is the speakers + dac combo. The room I have the JBLs in is way more dead than the other room I had the Topping D50 in though. I was just wondering if anyone else had this experience when paired with sensitive/revealing speakers. The DVP-S9000ES sounds way better to me than the Topping D50 which was surprising to me since its over 20 years old.
 
I know what you mean but don't have a good answer. My theory that these new clean detailed DACs make the flaws in acoustics more noticeable. EQing to a room target curve helps a lot, especially if done based on the actual measurements with a microphone.
Also if you can level match the DVP and the D50 and have someone do AB switching for you without you knowing what is playing. I found that all the perceived differences are likely to disappear once you can't reliably tell which source is playing. Level matching is key however.
 
gvl said:
I know what you mean but don't have a good answer. My theory that these new clean detailed DACs make the flaws in acoustics more noticeable. EQing to a room target curve helps a lot, especially if done based on the actual measurements with a microphone.
Also if you can level match the DVP and the D50 and have someone do AB switching for you without you knowing what is playing. I found that all the perceived differences are likely to disappear once you can't reliably tell which source is playing. Level matching is key however.
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I'm not sure a blind test is going to make my headache go away that I get when listening to the D50 but I get your point about psycho acoustics and all that. It's not that I don't think the D50 sounds better... it's definitely quieter, more transparent, and detailed... but I can't listen to it without getting a headache. I tried to power through yesterday's listening session and ended it with a headache... today I started off with the volume dramatically lower to see if that was the issue, and about half way through the first album I felt the headache starting to come on... tried a couple more songs a different albums and it didn't go away so I switched back to the DVP and actually turned the volume up and have been listening for a couple hours now with no headache. :dunno:
 
This is similar to my experience at one point. My first ESS DAC was way too bright on first listen, I had no doubt I could pick it against others I used at the time but in the end my attempts were not better than guessing when I had my son to flip the inputs for me. After that experiment it started to sound fine :)

Further improvements were done with EQ, the speakers I was using had some peaking in HF, EQing them down helped a lot, that took care of the fatigue.
 
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gvl said:
This is similar to my experience at one point. My first ESS DAC was way too bright on first listen, I had no doubt I could pick it against others I used at the time but in the end my attempts were not better than guessing when I had my son to flip the inputs for me. After that experiment it started to sound fine :)

Further improvements were done with EQ, the speakers I was using had some peaking in HF, EQing them down helped a lot, that took care of the fatigue.
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Interesting. I could try with the help of my girlfriend I suppose but I'm not really in a position to be messing around too much with EQ and have always left my preamp tone controls defeated. Down the line I am hoping to maybe experiment with a minidsp + mic but that's on the horizon. I never got listening fatigue or headaches with the D50 was upstairs in a much more live room with tons of windows and hard reflections -- I could only assume after trying it with the JBL L7 and experiencing my results that it was because the Pioneer speakers have a much smoother, analog sound. I think it's a good pairing with those speakers and was going to move it back upstairs anyway... I have an Ares II on the way so was trying to expose myself to the D50 as much as possible so I could hear the difference when I get the Ares II.
 
You could at least get some data points by measuring at your listening position with REW and correlating them with your listening experience in both rooms. All you need is a laptop and a measurement microphone for starters. Taking basic measurements is easy.
 
As for the Ares II, it has NOS mode, if you try it it's guaranteed to sound softer and help with the fatigue, but it's just because there's HF rolloff in the NOS mode, but EQing is much better than relying on NOS with these issues.
 
mr.muddles said:
I've heard good things about Schiit dacs and their other products. Which ones do you have? I'm thinking about getting a Freya+ preamp from them possibly.
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I have a Modi multibit and Modi 3. In the the past I've owned the Bifrost multibit, Bifrost 4490, and Modius. I really couldn't discern a difference between the Bifrost multibit and Modi multibit or the Bifrost 4490 and Modi 3.
The Modius is very good and uses the AK4493. I use an Audiolab 6000CDT transport and the Modi multibit and Modi 3 give me everything I want. The Bifrost 2 is highly regarded but I just haven't felt the need to upgrade.
 
As I said earlier in an apparently deleted post? I too found the Topping a bit shiny sounding with my high efficiency speakers. I preferred the Schiit MB sound. However, as you noted the Topping might be a good choice for your less resolving Pioneer speakers. I hope that opinion is not controversial in some unimaginable way.
 
ssmith3046 said:
I have a Modi multibit and Modi 3. In the the past I've owned the Bifrost multibit, Bifrost 4490, and Modius. I really couldn't discern a difference between the Bifrost multibit and Modi multibit or the Bifrost 4490 and Modi 3.
The Modius is very good and uses the AK4493. I use an Audiolab 6000CDT transport and the Modi multibit and Modi 3 give me everything I want. The Bifrost 2 is highly regarded but I just haven't felt the need to upgrade.
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I'm thinking of getting an Audiolab 6000CDT to pair with my Ares II after I get it. Hoping it will be a good upgrade.
 
fredgarvin said:
As I said earlier in an apparently deleted post? I too found the Topping a bit shiny sounding with my high efficiency speakers. I preferred the Schiit MB sound. However, as you noted the Topping might be a good choice for your less resolving Pioneer speakers. I hope that opinion is not controversial in some unimaginable way.
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Never saw your earlier post but thanks for sharing your experience. Looking forward to the sound of a different DAC.
 
The thing that helps the most the devices, chips, op amps, transistors, tubes to work their best, is clean power without induction at the complete range of frequencies the device is able to work, and even further.

I would not tell a solid polymer capacitor that still have an "audible" inductance provide the cleanest power, and most modern devices are populated with.

Electrolytic capacitors have inductance at even lower frequencies, sometimes it's less harsh at high frequencies, because of the cut off at lower frequencies, and softer cut off.

The best is no cut off at all (Maybe until Ghz frequencies ?) with ceramic capacitor.

Multilayer Ceramic capacitors of 4.7uf 50V or 10uf 50V added to a solid polymer capacitor are specially impressing.

It's a child's play to add one capacitor in parallel to another by hand soldering...
 
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My recent anecdotal experience with Topping Dx7 Pro makes me think this phenomenon may have something to do with the ASRC in ESS chips that is typically constantly on in these inexpensive DACs. The Dx7 Pro allows to disable it and disabling ASRC appears to take some of that edge off, but maybe in my head as usual. I want to do a more controlled level matched experiment to see if this is real.
 
mr.muddles said:
I'm thinking of getting an Audiolab 6000CDT to pair with my Ares II after I get it. Hoping it will be a good upgrade.
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I really love it. It's a solid, well built piece of equipment. I was using a Marantz CD5003 for a transport and the Audiolab is a definite upgrade. I was skeptical that a transport would make a difference in the way my CDs sound but I'm a believer now.
 
ssmith3046 said:
I really love it. It's a solid, well built piece of equipment. I was using a Marantz CD5003 for a transport and the Audiolab is a definite upgrade. I was skeptical that a transport would make a difference in the way my CDs sound but I'm a believer now.
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I used to think that as well, but experience showed me otherwise. I am a bit leery of slot loaders though. I have a disk stuck in my truck. :)
 
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