• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Total Newbie Here! How to learn this stuff?

LaoTsu

New Member
Hi Everyone!

I considered myself fairly intelligent until I was bitten by the tube bug. I taught myself computers (Linux) and used what I learn to run a web design and hosting company for 5 years after graduating from law school. I taught myself car and bike mechanics, and can fix most mechanical things.

But I am totally kind of blown away by how hard it is to learn about tube audio!!!

So I need some places to start my research, I guess.

Would it make sense for me to build a tube amp and learn that way?

Or should I learn some electronics theory first?

I can do basic math, and have a multi-tester, and know how to solder (more or less).

By way of background - I bought a cheap ($204 delivered) chi-fi tube amp from eBay in March, and that's what got me hooked. I do have a little background in sound-reinforcement for nightclubs, but that was a long time ago. I also studied audio-recording engineering in undergrad, but again - long time ago.

I know basic things, like the difference between an amp and a pre-amp, and line voltage, and Ohm's Law, and how speakers work and stuff. But how tube amplifiers work completely escapes me. They are like really cool black boxes at this point, LOL.
 

Attachments

  • unnamed (1).jpg
    unnamed (1).jpg
    75.4 KB · Views: 64
Register to hide this ad
Tubes are easy. Solid state stuff isn't so easy! ;)

Tubes run on high voltage and low current.
Solid state stuff runs on low voltage and high current.

Confused yet? :D


 
Tubes are easy. Solid state stuff isn't so easy! ;)

Tubes run on high voltage and low current.
Solid state stuff runs on low voltage and high current.

Confused yet? :D

LOL, I think that actually helped me a little!

So a way to look at it could be that the voltage is more like the high voltage (but low amps) that you would need to start up (but not run) a fluorescent light?

ETA: found something that is helping - https://robrobinette.com/images/Guitar/HowAmpsWork/How_Tubes_Work.mp4

I now understand why my rectifier only needs 4 pins. :)
 
Last edited:
I would start with the basic electronics volumes prepared by the US Army and Navy, starting with WWII. The clarity is excellent, as these books were intended to teach draftees the basics of electronics to run and repair communication systems. All freely available. You'll learn electronics and simple tube circuits.

Once you understand the three basic types of tube circuits—common cathode, common grid, common plate, but known by a number of other names—the patterns will be recognizable, and it will be possible to deconstruct more complex circuits in terms of simpler ones.

Once you've mastered the basics, I'd suggest moving on to a variety of papers and texts. The papers for the Williamson amplifier and its variants, as well as the Mullard amplifier circuit book, which were intended for hobbyists, will also be useful.

These materials may all be located as PDFs without much effort. So may any number of older books from the thirties, forties, and fifties, which are generally written to far higher standards of clarity, literacy, understanding, and correctness than most of the modern books.
 
I would start with the basic electronics volumes prepared by the US Army and Navy, starting with WWII. The clarity is excellent, as these books were intended to teach draftees the basics of electronics to run and repair communication systems. All freely available. You'll learn electronics and simple tube circuits.

Once you understand the three basic types of tube circuits—common cathode, common grid, common plate, but known by a number of other names—the patterns will be recognizable, and it will be possible to deconstruct more complex circuits in terms of simpler ones.

Once you've mastered the basics, I'd suggest moving on to a variety of papers and texts. The papers for the Williamson amplifier and its variants, as well as the Mullard amplifier circuit book, which were intended for hobbyists, will also be useful.

These materials may all be located as PDFs without much effort. So may any number of older books from the thirties, forties, and fifties, which are generally written to far higher standards of clarity, literacy, understanding, and correctness than most of the modern books.

Thank you! Yes - that's exactly what I was looking for. Will do.

ETA: I will start with this: https://ia801000.us.archive.org/11/items/TM11-662/TM11-662_text.pdf
 
Last edited:
As a hobbyist with no educational background in electronics, I have found that working on specific projects, often with help from forums like AK, has taught me the most. We are fortunate to have a number of 'professors' here whose threads are masterclasses in tube audio. Work on some well known US classics, especially those designed as kits (Heathkit, Eico, Dynamo, etc) and study their assembly manuals to learn about the principles of layout. It is essential to be able to read schematics, but I think you may gave that skill already? Practise, practise, practise.
 
As a hobbyist with no educational background in electronics, I have found that working on specific projects, often with help from forums like AK, has taught me the most. We are fortunate to have a number of 'professors' here whose threads are masterclasses in tube audio. Work on some well known US classics, especially those designed as kits (Heathkit, Eico, Dynamo, etc) and study their assembly manuals to learn about the principles of layout. It is essential to be able to read schematics, but I think you may gave that skill already? Practise, practise, practise.

Yes - that's what I was thinking. I learned computer stuff via trial and error. I think the combination of maybe starting with a real simple kit, and then also reading the technical manuals as I go along might be the fastest. I know there's some studies on things like this - and they tend to point out that when your hands are doing things as you learn, you learn faster. That's why when you take notes in class, and never even look at the notes again - you will retain more than if you never took notes.
 
Study the Magnavox threads here and look out for suitable consoles or pulls. The point about practise is learning to see how the theory has been implemented in the past by a generation who worked with tubes all the time, and learning the craft of restoration. Respect the quality of some old components too, e.g. nice nickel RCA sockets are better than some cheap gold plated ones today.

And that manual you link to in post #5 looks excellent.
 
Last edited:
Study the Magnavox threads here and look out for suitable consoles or pulls. The point about practise is learning to see how the theory has been implemented in the past by a generation who worked with tubes all the time, and learning the craft of restoration. Respect the quality of some old components too, e.g. nice nickel RCA sockets are better than some cheap gold plated ones today.

And that manual you link to in post #5 looks excellent.

Thank you.

ETA:

Holy moly - I am now finding the stuff that shows people how to make their own kits.

https://www.landfallsystems.com/?content=products/main
http://www.pmillett.com/DCPP.htm

That *may* be the ultimate "sink or swim" way to learn all this. . .

That being said, and assuming I can figure things out - what would be an easy design to start with? From looking at kits and prices all evening, it looks like just ordering the parts, a la carte, is the most cost-effective way.
 
Last edited:
Lao Tsu,
You are getting some great input on how to learn about tube technology, which requires some basic understanding of electronic theory and practice. You'll learn over time by building and doing, but to understand why things are built the way they are and function as they do, you need to understand the basics. So:
-+1 on Valvewizard recommendation from peterh--great stuff!
-Go to Youtube and do some simple searching around tube technolgy--there are some really good video series on the basics of how tube electronics work and how to work on them in turn. I always liked the Blueglow Electronics series (especially on troubleshooting and restoration work) and learned a lot from Mark's videos.
-Read a book. Yeah, it's like being in school, but a volume like Morgan Jone's Valve Amplifiers will teach you a lot and things will start to make more sense when you are faced with troubleshooting tube gear that doesn't work, etc.

Learning is at least half the fun--enjoy!
Dave
 
The older textbooks and tutorials, particularly the ones from the military, truly are the best resources for starting out, certainly far better than reading forums or websites. Once one understands basic electronics—resistors, capacitors, transformers, simple timing circuits, filters, etc.—it is possible to build upon that solid foundation with actual understanding. Building kits designed by others will never take one there. Being able to explain and analyze the circuit in the kit, however, is a very different proposition.

The core difficulty with starting with a kit is the lack of teaching the basics of function or design, and the fact that the circuit is fixed: it is what it is, it does what it does, and that's not easily or readily modifiable. Is the goal of assembling the kit to (a) receive a tutorial in circuitry, (b) end up with a working object, or (c) both? Many circuits and kits cut corners to meet a low price point—just look at the ChiFi which is typically outright fraudulent at the criminal level—which a novice simply will not understand, cannot understand, and consequently will be bamboozled. (What are grid and screen stoppers for? Why was the value of a plate resistor or grid leak chosen? What are the effects of coupling capacitors? Cathode-bias bypass to avoid degeneration? What do any of these components even do in a circuit? Why use a cathodyne splitter instead of an long-tail pair? How does an output transformer work? Or a power transformer? How does biasing work? What is the filtering effect of Miller capacitance and why would this affect frequency response?) Many of the repair websites promote designs optimized for a particular purpose, such as guitar amplifiers, or for refurbishing designs which weren't that outstanding in the first place or are now dated, and which are endlessly replicated as if holy writ handed down on some stone ur-document where the slightest change is heresy.

The forums are often filled pernicious nonsense which, absent a basic understanding of electrical engineering, is unquestioningly accepted and must only be subsequently unlearned. Particularly with respect to the purported magickal sonic properties of components or circuits where endless repetition nonsense has created dogma, mistaken for fact. Or power supplies. I doubt that even a simple majority of forum participants could explain the basis for RMS or why peak voltage is higher, why a half-wave or voltage-double stresses a transformer, and why one simply cannot throw thousands of µF onto a power supply for sonic bliss. Simulation? What's that? Many promote random tube substitutions—high mu for high Gm, for example, where gain is completely irrelevant but transconductance significantly matters—and then crow about substantial "soundstage improvements" which are utterly impossible from an engineering standpoint, as the circuit no longer properly functions. I doubt most could explain how a capacitor works, let alone filter characteristics. Confirmation bias is pervasive, as is trusting ears over objective, and reproducible, measurements using test equipment.

The reason for that is a lack of basic understanding. Without a decent grasp of component functionality and knowledge of circuit behavior it is highly difficult, if not downright impossible, to separate complete nonsense from absolute truth, or to navigate the often confusing regions between the two. Foundational knowledge is crucial to be able to evaluate the writings. Here there be dragons.

The ten-thousand hour rule is well known; the corresponding rules of thousand hour, hundred hour, ten hour, and one hour, less so. A hundred hours of study should yield enough understanding to be able to design a simple amplifier and have it work reasonably well, or to take an existing one and modify it to better function. Once the basics have been mastered, it is possible to look at a design and understand the how's and why's and therefore's.

Kits and forums will never yield that level of understanding. Reading actual books will. The books written in the old days (1940s to 1960s) tend to have a breadth and completeness which is rarely seen in today's offerings. That's not nostalgia, it's a combination of basic literacy and written skills, better education, and higher standards for communication. I have entire shelves filled with those books; highly educational and a delight to read. Many, like the Radiotron Designer's Handbook by Fritz Langford-Smith (aka RDH, with the giant 4th edition preferred) or the Electronic Designer's Handbook (2nd ed) by Giacoletto are more suitable as reference materials than as textbooks. Norman Crowhurst's papers and books are better suited for those just starting out, as are the military texts.

I'm most definitely not saying you need the equivalent of a degree in Electrical Engineering. Far from it. (I consider most of my engineering education to be a complete waste of time and money, as it was either mathematical manipulation for its own sake or memorization and regurgitation without any analysis of practical utility.) I'm suggesting that with a few weeks of reading, say fifty hours (roughly two hours a day for 30 days, or about one hour a day for sixty days), you'd accumulate enough understanding to be able to analyze most tube circuits and build your own simple experiments.

As I above noted, the military books (check out the basic electronics books as well) were designed to rapidly convert recruits into radio operators. The coursework was learnable in a month or two, which was all the time the Army and Navy had to create an army of technicians. Wartime and all that. Start there. Learn the basics of electronics and tubes, and you'll be able to look at any schematic or kit and say, I can use this as a starting point. Because if your goal is to understand, that's the only way to get there. If you just want something which works, you can rebuild any number of vintage amplifiers and end up with a result far superior to a kit.
 
Last edited:
The older textbooks and tutorials, particularly the ones from the military, truly are the best resources for starting out, certainly far better than reading forums or websites. Once one understands basic electronics—resistors, capacitors, transformers, simple timing circuits, filters, etc.—it is possible to build upon that solid foundation with actual understanding. Building kits designed by others will never take one there. Being able to explain and analyze the circuit in the kit, however, is a very different proposition.

Agreed. I think knowing why one is "doing something" - is much better than knowing that one is "doing something."

The core difficulty with starting with a kit is the lack of teaching the basics of function or design, and the fact that the circuit is fixed: it is what it is, it does what it does, and that's not easily or readily modifiable. Is the goal of assembling the kit to (a) receive a tutorial in circuitry, (b) end up with a working object, or (c) both? Many circuits and kits cut corners to meet a low price point—just look at the ChiFi which is typically outright fraudulent at the criminal level—which a novice simply will not understand, cannot understand, and consequently will be bamboozled. (What are grid and screen stoppers for? Why was the value of a plate resistor or grid leak chosen? What are the effects of coupling capacitors? Cathode-bias bypass to avoid degeneration? What do any of these components even do in a circuit? Why use a cathodyne splitter instead of an long-tail pair? How does an output transformer work? Or a power transformer? How does biasing work? What is the filtering effect of Miller capacitance and why would this affect frequency response?) Many of the repair websites promote designs optimized for a particular purpose, such as guitar amplifiers, or for refurbishing designs which weren't that outstanding in the first place or are now dated, and which are endlessly replicated as if holy writ handed down on some stone ur-document where the slightest change is heresy.

Yes, I think perhaps an apt analogy here would be something along the lines of a 1980's Soviet automobile designer who wants to learn the craft, but is instead forced to work as a Yugo mechanic. He or she will learn how to fix a Yugo, but won't understand how to create something better than a Yugo (unless they embark on self-training). Mikhail Kalashnikov comes to mind as someone who didn't want to (metaphorically) "fix Yugos" anymore, BTW.

He was entirely self taught.

The forums are often filled pernicious nonsense which, absent a basic understanding of electrical engineering, is unquestioningly accepted and must only be subsequently unlearned. Particularly with respect to the purported magickal sonic properties of components or circuits where endless repetition nonsense has created dogma, mistaken for fact. Or power supplies. I doubt that even a simple majority of forum participants could explain the basis for RMS or why peak voltage is higher, why a half-wave or voltage-double stresses a transformer, and why one simply cannot throw thousands of µF onto a power supply for sonic bliss. Simulation? What's that? Many promote random tube substitutions—high mu for high Gm, for example, where gain is completely irrelevant but transconductance significantly matters—and then crow about substantial "soundstage improvements" which are utterly impossible from an engineering standpoint, as the circuit no longer properly functions. I doubt most could explain how a capacitor works, let alone filter characteristics. Confirmation bias is pervasive, as is trusting ears over objective, and reproducible, measurements using test equipment.

Yes. The main reason I am here is that I hate BS. There's a certain social media website where people just repeat what they have heard. They are actually all like this, come to think of it. It's a combination of confirmation bias and the pernicious internet echo chamber effect. As you know, to make matters worse - the terms that people use are entirely subjective. "Soundstage," "bass extension," "air," "ink," "forward," "recessed," "musical," etc. . ---> those terms only mean something when they are defined. Even then, the words are entirely subjective (e.g., what is "musical" to me might be "dry" to someone else, et vice versa.) To add a third level of sadness, much of what people see on the internet, at least on mainstream social media sites, falls into the realm of influencer marketing, if not downright shilling.

The reason for that is a lack of basic understanding. Without a decent grasp of component functionality and knowledge of circuit behavior it is highly difficult, if not downright impossible, to separate complete nonsense from absolute truth, or to navigate the often confusing regions between the two. Foundational knowledge is crucial to be able to evaluate the writings. Here there be dragons.

Agreed 100 percent. This gap between what people think they know, and what they actually know - that is actually the gap through which a lot of money is made, sadly. It's literally a form of "knowledge arbitrage" in which influencers, shills, and useful idiots ply their trade (or in the case of useful idiots, ply the trades of others and not even realize it).

The ten-thousand hour rule is well known; the corresponding rules of thousand hour, hundred hour, ten hour, and one hour, less so. A hundred hours of study should yield enough understanding to be able to design a simple amplifier and have it work reasonably well, or to take an existing one and modify it to better function. Once the basics have been mastered, it is possible to look at a design and understand the how's and why's and therefore's.

I like this. I knew the 10k rule, but not the subdecimal concept. If my experience on other things is correct, I would venture to also say that as I learn more, I will realize I know less.

Kits and forums will never yield that level of understanding. Reading actual books will. The books written in the old days (1940s to 1960s) tend to have a breadth and completeness which is rarely seen in today's offerings. That's not nostalgia, it's a combination of basic literacy and written skills, better education, and higher standards for communication. I have entire shelves filled with those books; highly educational and a delight to read. Many, like the Radiotron Designer's Handbook by Fritz Langford-Smith (aka RDH, with the giant 4th edition preferred) or the Electronic Designer's Handbook (2nd ed) by Giacoletto are more suitable as reference materials than as textbooks. Norman Crowhurst's papers and books are better suited for those just starting out, as are the military texts.

I will obtain those. I agree with what you say about older books. People were simply more literate 50 years ago. There has been a general dumbing down. The irony is that this dumbing down (by definition) decreases the amount of information that can be communicated per 100 words. There are more words now, but they mean less. This cycle of "smarting up," then "dumbing down" is ancient, BTW:

Heaven and Earth are impartial;
They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs.
The wise are impartial;
They see the people as straw dogs.
The space between heaven and Earth is like a bellows.
The shape changes but not the form;
The more it moves, the more it yields.
More words count less.
Hold fast to the center.


-- Tao Te Ching, Ch.5

I'm most definitely not saying you need the equivalent of a degree in Electrical Engineering. Far from it. (I consider most of my engineering education to be a complete waste of time and money, as it was either mathematical manipulation for its own sake or memorization and regurgitation without any analysis of practical utility.) I'm suggesting that with a few weeks of reading, say fifty hours (roughly two hours a day for 30 days, or about one hour a day for sixty days), you'd accumulate enough understanding to be able to analyze most tube circuits and build your own simple experiments.

Yes. That was my experience with learning "the law." What we learned in law school was "how to think like a lawyer." We also learned some basic black letter that you can learn from Nolo books in maybe a few months of intense study. Most of the learning happened after law school. It's literally more like trade school. This is kind of the big secret. Law is actually not that hard, but there are great financial incentives to create artificial barriers to entry into the trade.

As I above noted, the military books (check out the basic electronics books as well) were designed to rapidly convert recruits into radio operators. The coursework was learnable in a month or two, which was all the time the Army and Navy had to create an army of technicians. Wartime and all that. Start there. Learn the basics of electronics and tubes, and you'll be able to look at any schematic or kit and say, I can use this as a starting point. Because if your goal is to understand, that's the only way to get there. If you just want something which works, you can rebuild any number of vintage amplifiers and end up with a result far superior to a kit.

Thank you again for the wonderul and insightful observations. I have my mission now. On it!
 
Begin by studying your own SE tube amp. Describe what you observe. ' The toe bone's connected to the foot bone, the foot bone's connected to the ankle bone,' etc.!
 
Begin by studying your own SE tube amp. Describe what you observe. ' The toe bone's connected to the foot bone, the foot bone's connected to the ankle bone,' etc.!

Good advice!!!

Here's the schematic (or kind of half and a little more of it) so that people can cringe, laugh, and/or comment. It's interesting to me that he put a (dated) seal on it.

Real nice guy however. I give him props for working his butt off to make some money.
 

Attachments

  • s-l1600.jpg
    s-l1600.jpg
    90.9 KB · Views: 41
Some of the books are a little dry on the reading, but they're nice for reference, especially if you have a circuit in front of you and want some understanding of how it is meant to work. I pick through them in dribs and drabs to pull little nuggets out. Current one in the "reading room" is the Radiotron Designer Handbook 3rd edition. I want a 4th edition to get some post-war developments but it never fails to amaze me how many things were solidly understood in 1940 that seem to be a relatively recently learned lesson in some circles.


As for the schematic, drawing only a single channel of a stereo amp is pretty common. Its just 2 of the same thing, no need to draw it twice really.
 
t it never fails to amaze me how many things were solidly understood in 1940 that seem to be a relatively recently learned lesson in some circles.

Yes! I got into this discussion with someone on a mainstream social media site. There's a general perception that everything works just like Moore's Law. They think all technology just keeps better and better. It's my perception that some technology has never improved once it hit a certain point. In fact, in some cases (turntables come to mind) - there's been a regression due to cost-cutting.

I also think that some arts get lost as the people who know them die off. . .

That is - there is a perception (especially now in the internet age) is that the sum of human knowledge is written down in words. I would argue that most of what humanity, collectively, "knows" is not written down. Rather, it's in the minds of people who know, and who gained that knowledge through direct experience, and by learning from another person.

The above is why it will be impossible to rebuild the Notre Dame in any semblance of what it was, come to think of it. The people who actually knew how to do that stuff are long gone, along with their knowledge. The above concept ("knowledge is primarily direct") is also a key tenet of Zen, martial arts, trade apprenticeship, Freemasonry, etc. . .

LOL, sorry for diversion. This stuff is fascinating to me.
 
Great that the seller of your Chinese amp sent you a hand drawn schematic! That is unusual, as far as I know, and very helpful for your learning.

BTW, @gadget73 I think the second channel is shown via the red line on the schematic. LaoTsu, this is unusual in my experience.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom