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Tracking Force

fmueller

fmueller

Super Member
I few days ago I bought an Onkyo CP-1000A TT. I set it up yesterday, and was impressed by what I had gotten for $10! Not knowing much about TTs and vinyl, I used the same tracking force people had recommended I use for my other TT (a Dual 504), that is 1.25g. That worked just fine. Today I worked out that the CP-1000A is basically the same critter as the CP-1200A, which allowed me to download a manual from Vinylengine. The manual recommends a tracking force of 2g for the standard cartridge, which I am pretty sure my TT still has installed. (The manual says nothing about the cartridge, mine says ADC Series 1). I tried that and find no noticeable improvement. Should I go back to 1.25g? :headscrat

I am guessing the less the tracking force, the less wear is put on stylus and record. So you really want to use as little as you need to achieve the sound you want. Is am correct in that thinking?

Frank

Onkyo-CP-1000A-4.jpg

Onkyo CP-1000A - $10 TT from the local thrift.
 
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Cartridge tracking force is generally determined by the cartridge, not the turntable. Go to this link http://www.cartridgedb.com/ and look up you cartridge, with any luck they will have a recommended tracking force for your cartridge. An analog audiophile friend of my suggested that you want to track close to the heavier side recommended force to extract the most information from the recording. I've also read that you should consider the condition and cleanliness of the lp. My 2 cents worth.
 
First of all, Frank, congratulations on the $10 score!

The tracking force is dependent on the cartridge and stylus, not the turntable. There's no way to know what cartridge was originally on this. I believe for this you can use 1.5g. Yes, less force means less record wear to a degree. But too little force and the arm is easily pushed from side to side potentially causing groove damage. A good rule of thumb is about 2/3 to 3/4 the way to the high end. So for example, the possible tracking force range for Shure's best elliptical carts is .75 to 1.5g and the recommended force is 1.25g.

Incidentally, this ADC cartridge has a conical tip and is not the best for sound reproduction. This Onkyo has the advantage of having a low mass arm which is a good match for many of the low cost, popular cartridges available today.
 
Many thanks for your input, guys. For the time being I've put it back to 1.25g, because I actually imagine hearing a little crackle when I put it higher. It's definitely there at 2g.

hakaplan said:
Incidentally, this ADC cartridge has a conical tip and is not the best for sound reproduction. This Onkyo has the advantage of having a low mass arm which is a good match for many of the low cost, popular cartridges available today.
Click to expand...

Can you recommend one? I do like the sound of the ADC, but it sure would be interesting to compare it to something else!

Frank
 
A pretty good cart for not a lot of money is the Ortofon Super OM10. It also opens the door to upgrades down the road. It seems to me it would be a good match to your TT.
 
Danger Boy said:
sorry to derail, but what is a low mass tonearm?
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hi danger boy

ive tryed to make the details below short and sweet and kept them simple to stop you fallen asleep when reading heheh:D

low mass arm is 1 that is very light (from carbon fibre or plastic or very thin alloy)

medium weight arm is normally a little heaver

and a high mass arm will almost certainly be thicker alloy in the arm tube

the weight of the arm tube and headshell is called the effective mass of the arm :
low mass is around lets say 6-8grams
med about 9-11 grams
and heavey about 12-16 grams

most cartridges will be perform better if the effective mass in the arm is suited to the cartridges needs (thats called compliance)
the compliance of the cartridge is the stiffness of the rubber inside the cartridge

a soft rubber in cartridge (high complaince) would match the low mass arm
medium stiffness rubber matches the medium effective mass arm
and a really stiff rubber in cartridge (low compliance) matches the heavey arms


HOPE THATS OF SOME USE ...ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE JUST ASK

best wishes
j7
 
Not to step on audioorigami's toes, but just a tiny bit of clarification. Think of the cantilever of the stylus as a spring--a leaf spring to be more precise. The softer the spring the higher the compliance, the stiffer the spring, the lower the compliance. Compliance specs you may find are often inaccurate, misleading or inconsistent, so a fairly reliable way to determine it is to look at the tracking force. High compliance carts will have lower tracking forces and vice versa.
 
hakaplan said:
Think of the cantilever of the stylus as a spring--a leaf spring to be more precise. The softer the spring the higher the compliance, the stiffer the spring, the lower the compliance.
Click to expand...

That´s the best explanation, in layman´s terms, I´ve ever heard.:thmbsp:

Thank you, Howard.

Jorge
 
hakaplan said:
What's the most you'd want to spend?
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Well, I do realize that the cartridge would likely be a little more expensive than the whole TT :D

Both my other TTs came with cartridges, and never having bought one, I pretty much lack an appreciation of a ballpark figure of what a good cartridge costs. Looking at the Ortofon Super OM10 Fast_Eddie recommended, it seems to be going for $69.00 at Needledoctor - that includes the stylus, right? It's kinda unclear on the site. Anyhow, I guess I could swing that. However, if I could get a significantly better cartridge for $100-$120, I'd probably safe up my pennies for a while and get that one, especially since I am not in a rush to replace the ADC.

Originally I got into vinyl because I found I can buy a lot of nice LPs for 30c a pop while CDs are at least $2. That money saving exercise doesn't seem to be working out so well for me, as I am being sucked deeper and deeper into the hobby:

Dual 504 - $50
New Stylus for the Dual - $40
Mitsubishi LT-20 - $50
Allsop Orbitrac 2 - $60
Discwasher - $15

and the list goes on! However, I am being sucked in willingly. So I guess I shouldn't complain, and I haven't had this much fun listening to music in a long time. :music:

Again, many thanks for all your help. This site has been enormously useful for me!

Frank
 
The Ortofon OM-10 is not universally loved, despite the upgrade path. If you want Ortofon, go straight to the 2M Red.

The AT440MLa would be another possibility.
 
hakaplan said:
Not to step on audioorigami's toes, but just a tiny bit of clarification. Think of the cantilever of the stylus as a spring--a leaf spring to be more precise. The softer the spring the higher the compliance, the stiffer the spring, the lower the compliance. Compliance specs you may find are often inaccurate, misleading or inconsistent, so a fairly reliable way to determine it is to look at the tracking force. High compliance carts will have lower tracking forces and vice versa.
Click to expand...

nice touch there howard:thmbsp:
 
Ah the cartridge question? If your TT supports changeable headshells, you can have more that one. If fixed, only one. They range from $59 to $5000 or so. If your LP collection is modest and you don't play every day, maybe an AT95HE from LPGear for <$100. If you like a certain sopund or your speakers need a bit of help, maybe a Grado Black for about the same (if your TT will not hum with Grado's?). Or an older Shure with modern replacement stylus? Lot's of options. Tell us more about your system?
 
Koptapad said:
Even Goodwill is $0.99 + tax. Where do you get $0.30 records? Thanks.
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Simple answer - Goodwill! Around here, that is north east Ohio, GW charges $0.30 for records and tapes, $2 for CDs! The day I found out about that - only a few weeks ago - I instantly bought a record just for kicks, even though I had never owned a TT in my life! The next day I went back and bought about 80 records. I think I am approaching 200 now. In fact, if you donate something at the back of the store you get like a 30% off voucher, so some of my records were more like $0.20 - plus tax of course :D

BrocLuno said:
Tell us more about your system?
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As I said, I am very new to vinyl and have just bought about 200 records mostly from GW over the last few weeks. I have only listened to a hand full of those that looked mint. The others need to be cleaned thoroughly before I'll even put them on a TT. In fact, I expect that I'll actually have to toss quite a few of them, because they will not be in a condition to be brought back up to scratch. However, at the price I bought them I' won't loose much, and I will be one heck of a learning experience, teaching me what to look for and what to avoid.

My first priority right now is getting a cleaning routine established, and gathering all the stuff I need for that. I am following along the lines of this article, which recommends manual cleaning in several steps: 1. dust removal using disc washer, 2. wet pre-cleaning using cotton swabs and cleaning fluid on a dedicated TT, 3. deep cleaning using Allsop Orbitrac 2, 4. vacuum cleaning. Step 4 seems more or less optional, and I don't yet have a vacuum record cleaner. I think I'll skip that step for starters, but all the other stuff I have or have ordered. So I should be able to get into that shortly. I think my next investment will be in a stash of inner sleeves and possibly also poly outer sleeves to preserve the covers. I can't see myself putting the records back into their shabby old sleeves once I've gone through this much effort cleaning them. I think I'll buy 500 sleeves to start with, so that will be a bit of money.

The Onkyo is probably my third best TT right now. My personal TOTL is a Mitsubishi LT-20 with a Audio Technica Signet cartridge. That TT is hooked up to my main system: Yamaha R2000 with Infinity RS-4b. Second in line is a Dual 504 with an Empire cartridge for which I bought a brand new stylus. It's supposed to go in my basement system (Kenwood KR-485G, Paradigm 11se MKII), but it's currently giving me some trouble being set up properly. That's why I am using the Onkyo with that system in the interim, and it sounds pretty darn good with the ADC cartridge it has right now. I appreciate that it could sound better with a better cartridge, and I'll put that on my wish list, but it is behind the cleaning project and setting up the Dual 504 - oh, and I have a pair of JBL Decade 26 that I want to restore! :bigok:

Frank
 
R2000 !!! My, my - you are in a good place. Infinity RS4b's, well I've a few posts in the Infinity forum. Usually after I get done rebuilding a pair of RS's and get the urge to write about.

Your cleaning regimen is a bit higher end than needed for preview play. For taping or ripping to digital, maybe all the steps, but using a second TT with a tough cartridge and stylus (or cheap and easy to replace), you can start preview play on anything. I suggest a cart with an HE stylus and another with a conical. Between the two, you'll find out if an LP is usable for taping or something else. If neither cart/stylus will play moderately quietly, toss into the recycle bin and drop off at Salvation Army so they can move them along. At least the new buyer will get a clean LP :)

For Preview play, I just use commercial window cleaner and a cut down old paint brush. Others use warm water with dish soap. It's not that big a deal. Won't put them on the #1 table that way, but preview play - you bet. Need to know if you even want to listen twice?
 
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