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Trying vinyl/shellac

mrehorst

mrehorst

Super Member
A friend who was expecting to inherit his brothers vinyl collection recently bought himself an AT-LP120XUSB TT. It turns out he didn't end up with the vinyl, and he didn't see himself going out and buying any, so he gave me the TT. Unfortunately, he misplaced the power brick, 45 adapter, cuing light, and most importantly, the headshell and cartridge.

I have exactly one vinyl record, and several 78s that are made for electronic playback (and several others that are for mechanical playback only). I'm most interested in playing back the 78s, so I think I'm going to buy an AT headshell/cartridge combo with the 3 mil conical stylus, and wait and see if my friend locates the other parts of the TT. If not I'll eventually get an elliptical or other stylus for playing LPs. I think I'm more likely to buy more shellac 78s than vinyl records, mostly because I prefer the sound of CDs/digital files/streaming over vinyl, and because I find some of the music on 78s historically interesting.

Are there any deals to be had on a headshell and AT cartridge with a 78 rpm specific stylus, or should I bite the bullet and give Bezos some more money?
 
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Acoustical era 78s, pre-1925, easily sound better on a record player than any wind-up machine...
As you get involved, playback EQ can be upgraded.

78s are the easiest discs to sound good. Whether you ready the new AT deck or use a vintage record player, you will not be disappointed...
 
If you're running older 78s shellac and 78 rpm LPs, with Audio Technica:

VM670SP​

With a specialized body and internal wiring dedicated to monaural sound reproduction, plus a large curvature radius conical stylus, the VM670SP cartridge is designed for playing 78 RPM records. Part of the 600 Series in Audio-Technica’s new VM cartridge line – a line that harks back to A-T’s early days as a manufacturer primarily of high-end phono cartridges – the VM670SP is equipped with dual magnets that are internally connected to reduce record noise and obtain a highly focused “center” sound image that stereo cartridges can’t provide. The stylus’s 3.0 mil curvature radius makes it an excellent choice for playing 78s from a wide variety of eras. Includes mounting hardware

I think this would be a good option.
 
mrehorst said:
Are there any deals to be had on a headshell and AT cartridge with a 78 rpm specific stylus, or should I bite the bullet and give Bezos some more money?
Click to expand...

I would recommend going on the auction site and buying a used Shure M75 cartridge and a new 78 stylus for it. With any luck you can find it mounted on a universal headshell already that will fit your turntable.
 
The newer AT VM-670SP recommended above is optimized for monaural playback.

Stereo carts all have lateral and vertical output. Vintage Mono discs only have lateral output. The stereo vertical output adds significant noise, which cannot be fully removed by paralleling the L+R signal.

The mono switch on your control unit also cannot fully null the vertical signal component. Most vintage and modern stereo carts have 50% lateral AND 50% vertical output.
With older Mono discs, the stereo carts' vertical sensitivity includes 50% NOISE to the signal.

Mono carts with no vertical sensitivity/output will, indeed, yield the lowest noise figure.

If the OP or other mono listeners prefer to use a stereo cart, I would recommend the vintage Pickering/Stanton offerings. The Pickering V15 and Stanton 500 use the same styli and were/still are easily found. More expensive, Stanton 681 and 881 styli, were also available, but in much lower production numbers.
OEM Pickering/Stanton 78 styli can still be found, much easier than finding Shure 78 styli. Moreover, many of the Pickering Stanton OEM 78 styli have high quality, nude mounted styli, which Shure never offered.

Nude mounted jewels negate the metallic bonding element, which held the diamond tip during polishing. The resonance effects of a nude stylus vs. a brass or steel bonded stylus can be heard, even with lo-fi 78s. Nude is better, certainly.

Whatever 78 RPM stylus is chosen, 78s will sound impressive, even with aftermarket and/or bonded 78 styli.
Don't forget to increase tracking force when playing 78s.

KEEP ON SPINNING...
 
Thanks everyone for the input! I like the idea of getting one of the mono cartridges. I'll see what I can find on auction sites. Is there anything in the construction of the cartridges that fails with time- rubber bits, adhesives, etc.? Anything to beware of? Any idea on lifetime of the 3 mil styli? Can the mono stylus/cart play both electrically and mechanically recorded discs?

I have a 1947 Philco console radio with a record player that I can use to play the electrically recorded 78s, a 1926 Victrola wind up player for the mechanically recorded discs, and a 1906 (?) Edison Model B cylinder player for 2 minute wax cylinders. I have a few records in each format to allow me to demo them for visitors, but I think I like the electrical 78s from the 40s and 50s most, so that's where I'll start collecting.

Thanks again!
 
mrehorst said:
Is there anything in the construction of the cartridges that fails with time- rubber bits, adhesives, etc.? Anything to beware of? Any idea on lifetime of the 3 mil styli?
Click to expand...
Cartridge bodies generally last for decades. The rubber bits, adhesives are a lot of what goes bad in the styli, sometimes just with time. A diamond stylus should last a lot longer than a sapphire stylus, unless it is mishandled.
 
I checked the manual for the AT-LP120XUSB. The built in A to D converter samples in 16 bits at either 44.1 or 48 kHz, and I assume it applies RIAA equalization. I'll probably use the USB output and then run the files through Audacity as there are reverse RIAA and 78 rpm equalizations available to apply to the files. Actually, I'll probably use the phono output that has no eq, then add some gain to boost the signal via a couple opamps, and then run the signal into my Sony digital recorder. Then I'll apply 78 rpm eq via audacity to that file. What a mess!
 
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I ordered the VM670SP cartridge, but I'm wondering if the antiskate is going to work well with the recommended 5g tracking force. We'll see...
 
Above 3 grams, more antiskating usually not needed.

Here's a link to some Shellac n Vinyl info I wrote in 2000. When you read it, relax...Its a bit wordy, but it will answer many questions...

hifihaven.org

Phono EQ: Origins and Design Elements

Phono EQ Origins and Design Elements: Phono playback has come a long way from wind-up phonographs/gramophones. Before 1925, all shellac discs, whether 78, 80 RPM, faster or slower, the cylinders or discs were recorded acoustically. The musicians would gather around the bell of the horn, used as...
hifihaven.org hifihaven.org

I also wrote a longer essay in 2016 :

Phono EQ: Design, Retrofit + Disc Playback Charts (page 1) - Phono Stages & Step Ups - Lenco Heaven Turntable Forum

Phono EQ: Design, Retrofit + Disc Playback Charts. Historically, June 1948 marked the USA introduction of the 33 1/3 LP, by Columbia Records. Their Columbia “LP” EQ differed from the very many EQ circuits previously utilized by
www.lencoheaven.net www.lencoheaven.net

I recommend reading the HiFiHeaven essay first, as there is more 78 RPM info...

Best Regards n ENJOY !
 
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I ordered a couple generic headshells with wires and an VM95E cartridge for LPs and 45s. It should all arrive tomorrow, and then I can start playing around. I found a power brick with the right connector (5.5 mm barrel with 2.5mm socket) in my junk box that works. Those GD barrel connectors need some sort of color code to make it easy to match the plugs and sockets. I have at least 6 different 12V supplies that provide sufficient current, but have the wrong barrel connector.

Thanks for all the input!
 
Question for the experts: with the AT-LP120XUSB, is the RIAA equalization applied when you record via the USB output?
I would assume they just take the output from the built in preamp that has RIAA EQ and run it through an A to D converter.
I'm trying to play 78s and I'd like to apply the right EQ (I know, that's a can of worms - it depends on the recording company and date of recording) in Audacity, but probably have to invert the RIAA EQ first.
 
There is a guy here on audio karma who was analyzing different eqs for 78s. He found it more useful to let the riaa do it's thing first and then adjust. Do a search on 78eq and you will eventually run across the thread. This is a very cool rabbit hole to run down.
 
@Bicyclist , Before there was an online "presence," there was a gentleman who treasured 78s and early mono discs, then became known as "midimagic."
Perhaps, you may have heard about him, simply as Larry Robinson. He charted his recommended EQ for every 78, 45, and pre-stereo LP label. His charted info is so important, that Audacity, the digital transfer editing suite, credits him. As a serious record collector, I can attest to his legitimacy and honest presentations. I don't know if he ever posted on AK.

Phono playback curves are the inverse of phono recording curves. Mastering engineers cut the discs with specific phono recording curves. Pre-RIAA, our phono stages were supposed to incorporate the proper playback curve, AKA: Phono EQ.

These phono curves were to be applied in the phono stage, for most accurate reproduction.
Using the RIAA curve for all 78s, then adding tone controls to your taste can sometimes be enjoyable. But, consider that using tone controls or equalizers within "later gain stages," after the high gain phono stages, can be inadequate, even unredeeming with many discs. Then again, maybe some of you will gain an appreciation of early discs, using that method. Just remember that you will be re-engineering the music to your own taste. "Midimagic" described this "adding tone controls to RIAA" method, if you didn't have access to an accurate phono playback preamp. In the late 1950s and very early 1960s, even some preamps and integrated amps used "calibrated tone controls" in this way.

The correct, pre-RIAA phono playback curve, applied for each pre-RIAA disc, at the phono stage, will truly sound "correct," providing accurate "timing" of the music, with a "live" sound.

YMMV, and tone controls can sometimes "wake up" a given 78. Use the resources at hand and Enjoy the Music !
 
tubeactive said:
@Bicyclist , Before there was an online "presence," there was a gentleman who treasured 78s and early mono discs, then became known as "midimagic."
Perhaps, you may have heard about him, simply as Larry Robinson. He charted his recommended EQ for every 78, 45, and pre-stereo LP label. His charted info is so important, that Audacity, the digital transfer editing suite, credits him. As a serious record collector, I can attest to his legitimacy and honest presentations. I don't know if he ever posted on AK.

Phono playback curves are the inverse of phono recording curves. Mastering engineers cut the discs with specific phono recording curves. Pre-RIAA, our phono stages were supposed to incorporate the proper playback curve, AKA: Phono EQ.

These phono curves were to be applied in the phono stage, for most accurate reproduction.
Using the RIAA curve for all 78s, then adding tone controls to your taste can sometimes be enjoyable. But, consider that using tone controls or equalizers within "later gain stages," after the high gain phono stages, can be inadequate, even unredeeming with many discs. Then again, maybe some of you will gain an appreciation of early discs, using that method. Just remember that you will be re-engineering the music to your own taste. "Midimagic" described this "adding tone controls to RIAA" method, if you didn't have access to an accurate phono playback preamp. In the late 1950s and very early 1960s, even some preamps and integrated amps used "calibrated tone controls" in this way.

The correct, pre-RIAA phono playback curve, applied for each pre-RIAA disc, at the phono stage, will truly sound "correct," providing accurate "timing" of the music, with a "live" sound.

YMMV, and tone controls can sometimes "wake up" a given 78. Use the resources at hand and Enjoy the Music !
Click to expand...
I don't doubt that this is the preferred way to go but I will say that this method is not for the faint of heart. I can look up old recordings that have been transferred to digital online and will do that occasionally. For my enjoyment of the 78s in my collection, a 78 stylus on a shure cartridge and tweaking tone controls will have to suffice. I do understand it's not the real thing. I also understand I can get better results than my grandfather did playing his 78s in his console. I know because I was there listening to them in 1960.
 
Spare headshells come in very handily. Let's say you are enjoying some barrelhouse boogie 78s, with a 3-4 gram tracking force, using a magnetic cartridge.
Then, you get in the mood to play some 1925 or earlier, acoustically recorded discs, which were recorded with no equalization curves. You can now use any cartridge you like, even a decent ceramic cart, ready to play upon switching headshells.

Some of us have the added tracking force that acoustical discs require, added onto the extra, ready to play headshell/cart, in order to make rebalancing the tonearm minimally intrusive.

Your options with an extra headshell will easily minimize tweaking and maximize listening time...Enjoy !
 
Good idea to add weight to the headshell. I wrote the speed and tracking force to use on the headshell with a permanent marker but it would be better to set the arm up for the LP cartridge and just add weight to the 78 cartridge/headshell. The headshells I have have threaded holes for adding weight. so it should be easy enough to find a 3g weight to screw into the 78 headshell.
 
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