TT upgrade: Voldi, Well Tempered, Thorens, LP12 or another?

[Simon Walsøe]

Hello fellow audiophiles

I am looking to upgrade from my Funk Firm LSD w. Ortofon 2M black lvb, and I'm not sure what to move towards.
I have earlier owned several good Thorens players (160 super, 147 jubilee ao) and in many ways I really loved that warm and wide sound they produce - however the clarity and details of the LSD won me over. After recently upgrading on the speaker front to Tannoy Berkeley (they play absolutely superb) I now hear clearly that my vinyl soundwise is lacking behind my streaming source, even though its quite a basic digital setup.

I have around 1500 euro to spent at the moment, and my question is if there are any second hand options in that price range that would give me a significant improvement in sound?
Local options so far:

Voyd Valdi w. Alphason Opal (950 euro)
Thorens TD125 mk II (450 euro) - I could upgrade it with a good tonearm
Linn LP12 from around 1980 w Akito 1, circus bearings and upgraded power supply (1100 euro)
Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck (1350 euro)
Well Tempered Versalex (1750 euro)

After reading about Well Tempered turntables I have a sense that the Versalex would smoke the other ones, but its unfortunately slightly out of my price range.. I know many love LP12's but is it really worth it, or is it more of a hype? I love the Thorens sound which is why I consider the TD 125 - I hear its one of their best models, and to the price I could afford a better arm. And finally I have a hunch that the Voyd might be the best value for money of the bunch.

But I have never heard any of the models, and would be really grateful for your input!

 

[vinylkid58]

Linn LP12 from around 1980 w Akito 1, circus bearings and upgraded power supply (1100 euro)

Sounds like a solid deck, but the arm let's it down. So, you'll need to spend more money to get a better arm, which doesn't make this a great deal.

I love the Thorens sound which is why I consider the TD 125 - I hear its one of their best models, and to the price I could afford a better arm.

They always look great with an SME arm on them.

jeff

 

[Old Guy8]

I have a 1983 LP12, did partial rebuild with new Cirkus bearing. But old Valhalla PS and Basik LVX entry arm. It's on concrete floor. So no bouncing wood floor to deal with. I think it sounds good with Nagaoka MP200 cart.
You have experience with sprung Thorens 160 suspension. So that's similar. LP12s are nice tables. Parts and upgrades are pricey. Even IF, you can do work yourself. I have not dealt with any Linn dealers. (Some rumors say they can be expensive.) Positive is there are some after market parts makers in UK. To upgrade even old units. Serial # can help identify likely original configuration. They don't travel well. Especially if someone leaves sub platter and outer platter on. Even for car rides.

I don't have direct experience with any of the other TTs. I wonder how many posters will. Of course there are biases. Especially with Linn's and Technics SL1200s.

Can you get demos of the TTs you list? Condition, especially tonearm., of course, you can see. That would greatly influence me, personally. Without demo, I wouldn't buy one from an unknown party without good references. My 2¢ only.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

Hello fellow audiophiles

I am looking to upgrade from my Funk Firm LSD w. Ortofon 2M black lvb, and I'm not sure what to move towards.
I have earlier owned several good Thorens players (160 super, 147 jubilee ao) and in many ways I really loved that warm and wide sound they produce - however the clarity and details of the LSD won me over. After recently upgrading on the speaker front to Tannoy Berkeley (they play absolutely superb) I now hear clearly that my vinyl soundwise is lacking behind my streaming source, even though its quite a basic digital setup.

I have around 1500 euro to spent at the moment, and my question is if there are any second hand options in that price range that would give me a significant improvement in sound?
Local options so far:

Voyd Valdi w. Alphason Opal (950 euro)
Thorens TD125 mk II (450 euro) - I could upgrade it with a good tonearm
Linn LP12 from around 1980 w Akito 1, circus bearings and upgraded power supply (1100 euro)
Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck (1350 euro)
Well Tempered Versalex (1750 euro)

After reading about Well Tempered turntables I have a sense that the Versalex would smoke the other ones, but its unfortunately slightly out of my price range.. I know many love LP12's but is it really worth it, or is it more of a hype? I love the Thorens sound which is why I consider the TD 125 - I hear its one of their best models, and to the price I could afford a better arm. And finally I have a hunch that the Voyd might be the best value for money of the bunch.

But I have never heard any of the models, and would be really grateful for your input!

As most readers will not have heard your turntable at all, it would be really helpful if you could (try to) articulate what sonic improvements you are seeking - over and above what your FUNK FIRM LSD is presently delivering.

Where does it satisfy?

Where does it miss the mark?

Also, exactly what phono stage are you using?

 

[Simon Walsøe]

Thank you so much for your input, I really appreciate it.
Really good questions you ask @Sondek!

Its difficult to put into exact words, but since I changed speakers from JBL L96 to Tannoy Berkeley I have simply noticed that my vinyl setup is "lacking behind" my streaming - and I'm at the moment using a simple Chromecast Audio to streaming. Overall the sound is way better with the new speakers, but the difference in sound quality is really noticeable now - the streaming sound is generally fuller and more punchy with more articulate low end, also when I a/b the same album on vinyl and spotify.

In terms of phono stage you could have a good point. I play with different Luxman vintage amplifiers (R1500, R1040, L30) and only use the build in phono stage. Do you think I would gain a lot if I buy a external better phono preamp? Or maybe the sound I'm looking for is matter of mc vs mm cartridge? I have so far only tried diferent mm cartridges, since I dont have any mc-preamp.

 

[Old Guy8]

Outside your question comment:
You didn't say if you were using the internal CCA DAC. I use Chromecast Audio to stream internet radio and basic Spotify. I easily noticed A SQ improvement when I bypassed the CCA's internal DAC. Using a Mini Toslink cable to a stand alone Schiit DAC.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

Thank you so much for your input, I really appreciate it.
Really good questions you ask @Sondek!

Its difficult to put into exact words, but since I changed speakers from JBL L96 to Tannoy Berkeley I have simply noticed that my vinyl setup is "lacking behind" my streaming - and I'm at the moment using a simple Chromecast Audio to streaming. Overall the sound is way better with the new speakers, but the difference in sound quality is really noticeable now - the streaming sound is generally fuller and more punchy with more articulate low end, also when I a/b the same album on vinyl and spotify.

In terms of phono stage you could have a good point. I play with different Luxman vintage amplifiers (R1500, R1040, L30) and only use the build in phono stage. Do you think I would gain a lot if I buy a external better phono preamp? Or maybe the sound I'm looking for is matter of mc vs mm cartridge? I have so far only tried diferent mm cartridges, since I dont have any mc-preamp.

Simon, the path forward requires a careful process of elimination.

As a very experienced analog guy, here is my own logic. YMMV...

The FUNK FIRM "Vector" platter-drive system is one of the best ever developed, virtually eliminating the thrust "topple" that plagues many belt drive tables.
Read all about it here...

On this basis, I would not discard the turntable. There are other serious tweaks that you can do to improve this turntable further, but that is an adventure for another time.

Meanwhile, the FUNK FIRM LSD is reviewed by many as having a slight warmth to its overall tonal nature, so you need to select a cartridge that not only suits the tonearm, but also one that provides a high degree of dynamics, frequency extension, articulation and general slam and punch. These are the same attributes that FM radio stations needed back in the days when vinyl ruled the airwaves. Japanese electronics giant DENON delivered on this promise decades ago, explaining why most radio stations used DENON pick-ups for economic vinyl replay. More on that below...

The FUNK FIRM tonearm could be bettered, but I also believe that there are other low(er) hanging fruit currently on this vine.

On this basis, leave the tonearm, for the moment and just make sure that you have your (critical) anti-skate loading set optimally. This requires that you purchase a cheap grooveless record and adjust the anti-skate so your tonearm slowly finds its way to the middle of your LP and stays there.

You have mentioned that you generally play around with MM cartridges - but you don't mention which ones. My experience is that only rather costly MM cartridges begin to compare with MC cartridges for sound quality - but you are wary of MC cartridges because you don't have a MC phono stage.

On this basis, I would purchase an inexpensive DENON DL-110 High Output MC cartridge, which will work with your existing phono stage, due to its high output.

Your medium Eff. Mass FUNK FIRM tonearm will suit the DENON DL-110, as long as you move the arm-tube collar back, in order to lower the tonearm Eff. Mass as much as you can. The DL-110 package includes a mounting plate to add more weight to the cartridge, but I recommend that you don't use it. The DL-110 performs best at the lighter-side of a medium Eff. Mass tonearm.

We use the DL-110 as our daily runner and it still typically betters digital sound quality. Sporting one of the best styli in the business, the DL-110 is also super-quiet in the grooves and only requires ~1.5g of VTF to deliver superb sound, so your costly vinyl pressings will thank you. We have other far more costly cartridges to compare to the DL-110 and I can assure you it more than holds it own.

Lastly, you need to explore the world of MC phono preamps. This piece of the puzzle is make or break in analog and will become the bottleneck that determines your analog playback quality.

I recommend that you avoid SUTs - step-up-transformers - and go to a proper MC amplifier with plenty of Impedance Loading options. The DENON DL-110 requires 1,000 -Ohms (1K) Impedance Loading for best sound, but it can be run with as much as 100-Ohms (100R) - note: reducing the Impedance value increases the load - for improved performance on worn LPs. Experimentation on your tonearm is the key.

So, you have ~1500 EURO to spend.

A brand-new (recommended) genuine DENON DL-110 will cost ~300 EURO, leaving ~1200 EURO for a suitable Phono Stage. I have no problem buying a pre-loved Phono Stage, in fact our own beloved TRICHORD DELPHINI 2-box phono stage was preloved.

You should be able to buy an absolutely superb pre-loved Phono Stage for ~1200 EURO. I am a tube guy - for amps - but with a Phono Stage and the massive voltage gain involved, I would totally recommend solid-state. Avoid tubes at this budget level.

As long as you buy a Phono Stage with plenty of Impedance Loading options, you will be in clover - and have lots of other cartridge choices moving forward - albeit mostly at much higher cost than the affordable DENON.

So that's what I would do in your shoes, if you are keen to have your analog playback match your digital - or indeed surpass it, with the best pressings.

PURCHASES:
1. Grooveless Anti-skate record
2. DENON DL-110 High Output MC cartridge
3. New Phono Stage

Up and at ém!

 

[RickB]

Thank you so much for your input, I really appreciate it.
Really good questions you ask @Sondek!

Its difficult to put into exact words, but since I changed speakers from JBL L96 to Tannoy Berkeley I have simply noticed that my vinyl setup is "lacking behind" my streaming - and I'm at the moment using a simple Chromecast Audio to streaming. Overall the sound is way better with the new speakers, but the difference in sound quality is really noticeable now - the streaming sound is generally fuller and more punchy with more articulate low end, also when I a/b the same album on vinyl and spotify.

In terms of phono stage you could have a good point. I play with different Luxman vintage amplifiers (R1500, R1040, L30) and only use the build in phono stage. Do you think I would gain a lot if I buy a external better phono preamp? Or maybe the sound I'm looking for is matter of mc vs mm cartridge? I have so far only tried diferent mm cartridges, since I dont have any mc-preamp.

The 2M Black isn't a shabby MM cartridge, but I can tell you in my playing with classic Accuphase, Luxman and other vintage integrated amplifiers that yes, you can do way better than the original built in phono preamp ....

 

[UncleAng]

I know many love LP12's but is it really worth it, or is it more of a hype?

It's an overly hyped decent table

 

[RickB]

And...if you don't get an older LP12 with at least an Ittok arm don't do it.
The Akito 2 isn't bad, either...but I have the Basik Plus and a Project 9 tonearm in addition to the Ittok and the Ittok wins...I've set up and restored many Linns and the Ittok is a minimum...
The Valhalla power supply also shines when plugged into a voltage stabilizing, line noise cleaning power conditioner, brings it darn close to the Lingo's SQ...I have a low ampacity one made for sensitive computer systems I bought as new surplus in the 1990's...

 

[twiiii]

There is always the new SL 1200 GR2. If thats a bit high, then how about the NEW SL 1500C?

 

[Simon Walsøe]

The 2M Black isn't a shabby MM cartridge, but I can tell you in my playing with classic Accuphase, Luxman and other vintage integrated amplifiers that yes, you can do way better than the original built in phono preamp ....

This is really helpful, thank you!

 

[Simon Walsøe]

Simon, the path forward requires a careful process of elimination.

As a very experienced analog guy, here is my own logic. YMMV...

The FUNK FIRM "Vector" platter-drive system is one of the best ever developed, virtually eliminating the thrust "topple" that plagues many belt drive tables.
Read all about it here...

On this basis, I would not discard the turntable. There are other serious tweaks that you can do to improve this turntable further, but that is an adventure for another time.

Meanwhile, the FUNK FIRM LSD is reviewed by many as having a slight warmth to its overall tonal nature, so you need to select a cartridge that not only suits the tonearm, but also one that provides a high degree of dynamics, frequency extension, articulation and general slam and punch. These are the same attributes that FM radio stations needed back in the days when vinyl ruled the airwaves. Japanese electronics giant DENON delivered on this promise decades ago, explaining why most radio stations used DENON pick-ups for economic vinyl replay. More on that below...

The FUNK FIRM tonearm could be bettered, but I also believe that there are other low(er) hanging fruit currently on this vine.

On this basis, leave the tonearm, for the moment and just make sure that you have your (critical) anti-skate loading set optimally. This requires that you purchase a cheap grooveless record and adjust the anti-skate so your tonearm slowly finds its way to the middle of your LP and stays there.

You have mentioned that you generally play around with MM cartridges - but you don't mention which ones. My experience is that only rather costly MM cartridges begin to compare with MC cartridges for sound quality - but you are wary of MC cartridges because you don't have a MC phono stage.

On this basis, I would purchase an inexpensive DENON DL-110 High Output MC cartridge, which will work with your existing phono stage, due to its high output.

Your medium Eff. Mass FUNK FIRM tonearm will suit the DENON DL-110, as long as you move the arm-tube collar back, in order to lower the tonearm Eff. Mass as much as you can. The DL-110 package includes a mounting plate to add more weight to the cartridge, but I recommend that you don't use it. The DL-110 performs best at the lighter-side of a medium Eff. Mass tonearm.

We use the DL-110 as our daily runner and it still typically betters digital sound quality. Sporting one of the best styli in the business, the DL-110 is also super-quiet in the grooves and only requires ~1.5g of VTF to deliver superb sound, so your costly vinyl pressings will thank you. We have other far more costly cartridges to compare to the DL-110 and I can assure you it more than holds it own.

Lastly, you need to explore the world of MC phono preamps. This piece of the puzzle is make or break in analog and will become the bottleneck that determines your analog playback quality.

I recommend that you avoid SUTs - step-up-transformers - and go to a proper MC amplifier with plenty of Impedance Loading options. The DENON DL-110 requires 1,000 -Ohms (1K) Impedance Loading for best sound, but it can be run with as much as 100-Ohms (100R) - note: reducing the Impedance value increases the load - for improved performance on worn LPs. Experimentation on your tonearm is the key.

So, you have ~1500 EURO to spend.

A brand-new (recommended) genuine DENON DL-110 will cost ~300 EURO, leaving ~1200 EURO for a suitable Phono Stage. I have no problem buying a pre-loved Phono Stage, in fact our own beloved TRICHORD DELPHINI 2-box phono stage was preloved.

You should be able to buy an absolutely superb pre-loved Phono Stage for ~1200 EURO. I am a tube guy - for amps - but with a Phono Stage and the massive voltage gain involved, I would totally recommend solid-state. Avoid tubes at this budget level.

As long as you buy a Phono Stage with plenty of Impedance Loading options, you will be in clover - and have lots of other cartridge choices moving forward - albeit mostly at much higher cost than the affordable DENON.

So that's what I would do in your shoes, if you are keen to have your analog playback match your digital - or indeed surpass it, with the best pressings.

PURCHASES:
1. Grooveless Anti-skate record
2. DENON DL-110 High Output MC cartridge
3. New Phono Stage

Up and at ém!

View attachment 3356226

View attachment 3356227

Very helpful, thank you! I do realize now that before I do anything else I need to look into a better phono preamp! I would love to try out MC as well, but I do believe that it will take a serious MC cartridge to beat my 2M Black LVB.

I have been looking into these 3 secondhand preamps - anyone familiar with any of these:
Musical Fidelity M1 LPS (220 euro)
Musical Surroundings Phonomena II (240 euro)
Perreaux SXV 2 Silhuette Riaa (270 euro)

All of them has fine reviews, but at the moment I lean towards the Perreaux - it seems like it retailed at a sligh higher pricen than the other two, and is a bit more close to high-end.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Very helpful, thank you! I do realize now that before I do anything else I need to look into a better phono preamp! I would love to try out MC as well, but I do believe that it will take a serious MC cartridge to beat my 2M Black LVB.

I have been looking into these 3 secondhand preamps - anyone familiar with any of these:
Musical Fidelity M1 LPS (220 euro)
Musical Surroundings Phonomena II (240 euro)
Perreaux SXV 2 Silhuette Riaa (270 euro)

All of them has fine reviews, but at the moment I lean towards the Perreaux - it seems like it retailed at a sligh higher pricen than the other two, and is a bit more close to high-end.

I agree with you on MC subject. The other poster who seemed to lead on with first hand knowledge regarding your table and tonearm sounded like he might have some great points but when he came in with the recommended Denon DL-110 it all fell apart for me. The DL-110 was a great cart for the money when you could get them through Comet supply for less than a hundred dollars. But for a MC I consider it near the bottom of the pile.

 

[RickB]

Very helpful, thank you! I do realize now that before I do anything else I need to look into a better phono preamp! I would love to try out MC as well, but I do believe that it will take a serious MC cartridge to beat my 2M Black LVB.

I have been looking into these 3 secondhand preamps - anyone familiar with any of these:
Musical Fidelity M1 LPS (220 euro)
Musical Surroundings Phonomena II (240 euro)
Perreaux SXV 2 Silhuette Riaa (270 euro)

All of them has fine reviews, but at the moment I lean towards the Perreaux - it seems like it retailed at a sligh higher pricen than the other two, and is a bit more close to high-end.

You might also do a search here on AK for the EAR 834P clones from Aliexpress threads....they are really nice tubed preamps for mostly MM cartridges, and some of the clones I have seen are actually assembled better than the "real deal"...

 

[RickB]

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/ar...-clearaudio-musical-surroundings-graham-slee/

While I usually like MF gear the lack of adjustability on the M1 LPS kind of puts it into 3rd place of the three you have mentioned.

The EAR clones are purely MM oriented, you'd have to use a step-up transformer (in fact, the original 834 had selectable in/out step up transformers for using it with MC carts...

 

[Old Guy8]

I have a couple EAR834 clones. MM only. With better, quiet 12AX7 tubes they sound pretty good, to me. Maybe someone with younger, better hearing could decide different. Everything on AK is opinion. They supposedly have 48 db's of gain. Avoid the Chinese tubes that are included with some.
I run them currently with Nagaoka MP200 and Grado Opus3 HI- output carts.
No experience with MC carts.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

I agree with you on MC subject. The other poster who seemed to lead on with first hand knowledge regarding your table and tonearm sounded like he might have some great points but when he came in with the recommended Denon DL-110 it all fell apart for me. The DL-110 was a great cart for the money when you could get them through Comet supply for less than a hundred dollars. But for a MC I consider it near the bottom of the pile.

That was me. I respect your viewpoint, but there are no retractions here.

I am comparing the DENON DL-110 idyllically dialled-in, compared to both our costlier SHELTER 501/2 and DENON DL-103R cartridges - also both idyllically dialled-in.
(Our DESIGN BUILD LISTEN Wand Plus tonearm provides great flexibility in precisely how it is configured...)

IMHO, the not-as-cheap-as-it-used-to-be - but what is? - DL-110 is not far behind the other two legendary performers.

The really interesting thing we noted is, that throughout our careful listening sessions, the humble DL-110 responded (improved) to a greater extent to upgrades on our turntable and tonearm (we moved from a LINN Ittok to the Wand Plus) than they other two cartridges. The other two cartridges improved too - of course - but not to the same extent as the DL-110. Were were quite shocked.

I concluded from this process, that the more one spends on a cartridge, the more that costly cartridge is forgiving of turntable and arm limitations.

Equally, if you can really optimise the turntable, tonearm - and importantly, the phono stage loading - an affordable but excellent design like the DENON DL-110 can really step-up.

On that basis, I wouldn't hesitate to install the humble DENON DL-110 on any SOTA turntable/tonearm combination - as an affordable but excellent daily runner. That's exactly what we have done.

As always, YMMV.

The reason I am encouraging the OP to try the humble DENON DL-110 is that MC cartridges have a different sonic signature to MM cartridges. The DL-110 allows the OP to audition the MC sound - for not a lot of money. Best of all, if the OP likes what he hears, the DL-110 will continue to reward further system improvements like phono stage upgrades, etc.

So, the DENON DL-110 could serve as an affordable gateway to the wonderful world of MC cartridges - and the DENON DL-110 will continue to serve as a very capable and affordable daily runner.

Personally, I think if the OP can get a fantastic phono stage - and dial-in the DL-110 idyllically - he will be in clover with his current gear and may decide to stop and camp right there. Just my 10-cents worth.

PS: One warning: the DENON DL110 sounded so bad out of the (brand new) box, I was tempted to bin it!

 

[Simon Walsøe]

---- UPDATE----

Realizing the best way to upgrade my system would be a better phono preamp, I bought a second hand Perreaux silhouette sxv2. It should be a very good phono preamp and it retailed around 800-1000 euro when it was new around 10-12 years ago. With this preamp I do hear a difference in sound, however it is subtle, and I'm not sure I actually prefer this to the build phono stage in my Luxman R1040 receiver.
It definately sounds cleaner in a good way, with more air and space around - that is the improvement. However it also sounds thinner, especially in the bottom end, and it lacks a bit of punch in the bass compared to the Luxman. I am now puzzled about this, and what is the reason.

Is the Perreaux preamp (that supposedly should be very good) not correctly set up, or is it simply lacking in the low end?
Or is the build-in phono stage in the Luxman more warm with overemphasized low end, meaning that the Perreaux is more correct and therefore feels like lacking in bass punch to me?
The thing is that when I compare to digital sources there is no lack of punch in the low end.

My cartridge is the 2m Black LVB, and the Perreaux is set up with 47k in recommended load resistance and 74 pF in capacitance loading. I read that many people consider the Ortofon line to be less warm and more clinical, which also might be a thing to consider for me.

If anybody have any ideas I would love some input or suggestions!!

 

[Old Guy8]

My opinion is the speakers and cart/ phono preamp have the most effect on sound.

I think trying a nice phono pre is a good move. Unlike, stylii, it's not a consumable investment.

I've no experience with Ortofon carts. Looking yours up, it's a really nice cart. I've not owned a cart in that price range. Have you revisited making sure it's alignment is dialed in. Tried varying tracking force within its recommended range? Tried varying it's VTA?
Then, try different phono pre capacitance settings.

Change just one thing at a time.

Before you start considering other carts.