Tube Sound: Pre-Amp or Power Amp
- Thread starter mozcho
- Start date
kevzep
Its all about the Music
Oh, no fun man........I was going to buy a tube pre-amp to get my MC452 to sound tubey......
mozcho
Well-Known Member
I am still searching, and this sounds interesting:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/tube-pre-vs-tube-power-amp-my-experience.772930/
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/tube-pre-vs-tube-power-amp-my-experience.772930/
TX_Tube
Active Member
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/c28-or-mx-110-preamp.941565/
Post #7 and click the link that is contained in that posting. Of course YMMV. Bascum King does know a thing or 2 about audio products, IMO.
Post #7 and click the link that is contained in that posting. Of course YMMV. Bascum King does know a thing or 2 about audio products, IMO.
Today I have a different idea for an answer to the original question. Today I think OP should just go buy that Sansui (if still available, if it's in nice cosmetic shape and if it has been properly electrically & functionally restored). If the Sansui is not available, look for something else similar. Then listen to it, find out for yourself about tube sound and report back. Have some fun, learn first hand. That's part of the hobby.
(In the mean time, keep your McIntosh and Marantz.)
(In the mean time, keep your McIntosh and Marantz.)
twiiii
Lunatic Member
Have you noticed how many Hybrid tube units Charlie and the guys at Mc intosh have released lately. MA 12000, MA 252, MA 352, C8 mk II, C-70, C-22 MK V, C-2700, C-2600, MC 901. Etc etc. Remember none of Mac's pre-amps are pure tubes. They most have SS buffers. If you want all tube and have the coin you might look at ARC.
I gave up on tubes back in the 70's when Mac couldn't get decent tubes for my pair 275's. I wanted MC 3500's but could barely afford two on the tech/salesman plan, but I would have needed 4 to bi amp. So stuck with 275's as long as I could. Some of the old timers stuck with their tubes and eventually Russian tubes became available around 93 and they were able to keep their older Macs up to snuff. I guess I should have kept mine longer but I didn't. But I was eyeing MC 7200's and 7100's about that time that were direct couple and made my speakers sound better than ever. So no tubes for me.
I gave up on tubes back in the 70's when Mac couldn't get decent tubes for my pair 275's. I wanted MC 3500's but could barely afford two on the tech/salesman plan, but I would have needed 4 to bi amp. So stuck with 275's as long as I could. Some of the old timers stuck with their tubes and eventually Russian tubes became available around 93 and they were able to keep their older Macs up to snuff. I guess I should have kept mine longer but I didn't. But I was eyeing MC 7200's and 7100's about that time that were direct couple and made my speakers sound better than ever. So no tubes for me.
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Logan_Nolag
Active Member
I don't know if there's really such a thing as tube sound. I've owned two tube preamps the C220 and now C2700 as well as two SS preamps a C712 and C47. I went from C712 to the C220 and I didn't really like the C220 very much since it had a much lower SNR than the C712 so I sold it and bought a C47. I was very happy with the sound quality of C47 but I was never really happy with the functionality of the USB input. When the DA2 was announced I looked into getting a preamp with one and I was going to get the C8 simply due to the fact that it was the cheapest McIntosh preamp that was compatible with the DA2. I really wanted a C49 or possibly a C53 but it was hard to justify paying that much for what would basically amount to a DAC upgrade over my C47. I ordered a C8 but it was backordered for more than a month. I was willing to wait but it turned out that my dealer had an open box C2700 that they were willing to sell me for only a bit more than the C8 with the DA2. I jumped on the deal and I am very happy with the choice. The C2700 at least to my ears sounds much better than the C47. I can't really explain exactly what about it is better but I've been really enjoying it since I got it. The C2700 is by far my favorite McIntosh preamp I've owned.
Always fun to re-visit this subject.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge
https://www.bobcarvercorp.com/carver-challenge
I think that there is a "tube sound", it isn't intentional nor more pure, and it can be duplicated.
In amplifiers, it is my opinion and experience that many SS amplifiers don't do low output well, just the nature of the solid-state devices' linearity at very low switching voltages and why Class A was the standard for so long, but new SS devices and feedback schemes have improved that "first watt" SQ a great deal in SS, it was more natural for a tube to produce.
In instruments like a guitar amp, I don't think that the type of distortion that a tube produces when it is over-driven has been perfectly emulated in SS amplifiers. That distortion is important to Guitar guys and the like and might be part of why the mistique still exists in audio. In stereo systems the nature of the tubes to compress/collapse more when overdriven vs solid-state's ability to create HF distortion and more tweeter damage used to make them seem safer to some, but Powerguard and other protection that is in quality amplifiers starting in the '70s has really removed that excuse for favoring tubes as well.
I have some tube sets, and some SS sets, as @twiiii mentions there was a change in the quality of available replacement tubes beginning in the '70s, which I believe that at least one of my vintage tube sets doesn't tolerate well. I also feel that my modern tube sets don't really care whether it's running a $$$ NOS RCA Black-Plate or a new Svetlana/New-Sensor output tube.
I believe that the "tube sound" in my vintage tube sets was simply the sound and voicing that came from the design of those amplifiers in their time, with the available knowledge, measurement equipment, and amplification devices. Similarly many here (including me) feel that some of the older SS devices have a lot of "tube warmth", examples being the MC2505 & MC2105, I feel that they have a different voice than for example the next generations of SS from McIntosh. Intentional? I don't think so, it's just the most accurate that could be produced at the time, hell they didn't even have PNP devices in the outputs of the 2505 & 2505-2, geranium transistors through the early versions of the 2105 also eventually gave way to the more modern silicon devices, which continued to evolve. VIntage gear sounds different.
The newest generation of amplifiers and preamps from McIntosh certainly are voiced to whatever McIntosh feels that their market wants, regardless of the devices used inside. I believe that if Bob Carver could replicate "any" amplifier's sound in a couple of days in a motel room, McIntosh can in their well-equipped Engineering department also duplicate any sound that they want to for their new amplifiers. If it sounds "tube-like", it is because McIntosh management wants it that way. Most likely their new tube amps and preamps are designed to sound a particular way.
If you like the sound of a particular piece, be it vintage or new, that's the one you want. Whether it has tubes or not should not IMO be the reason that you choose it unless you just like looking at glowing glass bottles (I do), in which case it's the asthetics adding to your music experience, which is a good thing too. I feel that most of the vintage audio has its own sound, you can try a C26 or MC2505 if you want warm as much as you can choose a C2700, I'm willing to bet you will hear more "warmth" from a propely serviced 2505 than most any new tube set.
JMO, and I spent a lot of time at the last AXPONA trying to find the line between new tubes and new SS and pick out a new system, could hear as much warmth in some new esoteric SS as other new tube gear. Speakers tended to make much more difference to me.
Kind of like vinyl vs digital, there are fans and fanatics, won't ever be agreement on which is best.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge
https://www.bobcarvercorp.com/carver-challenge
I think that there is a "tube sound", it isn't intentional nor more pure, and it can be duplicated.
In amplifiers, it is my opinion and experience that many SS amplifiers don't do low output well, just the nature of the solid-state devices' linearity at very low switching voltages and why Class A was the standard for so long, but new SS devices and feedback schemes have improved that "first watt" SQ a great deal in SS, it was more natural for a tube to produce.
In instruments like a guitar amp, I don't think that the type of distortion that a tube produces when it is over-driven has been perfectly emulated in SS amplifiers. That distortion is important to Guitar guys and the like and might be part of why the mistique still exists in audio. In stereo systems the nature of the tubes to compress/collapse more when overdriven vs solid-state's ability to create HF distortion and more tweeter damage used to make them seem safer to some, but Powerguard and other protection that is in quality amplifiers starting in the '70s has really removed that excuse for favoring tubes as well.
I have some tube sets, and some SS sets, as @twiiii mentions there was a change in the quality of available replacement tubes beginning in the '70s, which I believe that at least one of my vintage tube sets doesn't tolerate well. I also feel that my modern tube sets don't really care whether it's running a $$$ NOS RCA Black-Plate or a new Svetlana/New-Sensor output tube.
I believe that the "tube sound" in my vintage tube sets was simply the sound and voicing that came from the design of those amplifiers in their time, with the available knowledge, measurement equipment, and amplification devices. Similarly many here (including me) feel that some of the older SS devices have a lot of "tube warmth", examples being the MC2505 & MC2105, I feel that they have a different voice than for example the next generations of SS from McIntosh. Intentional? I don't think so, it's just the most accurate that could be produced at the time, hell they didn't even have PNP devices in the outputs of the 2505 & 2505-2, geranium transistors through the early versions of the 2105 also eventually gave way to the more modern silicon devices, which continued to evolve. VIntage gear sounds different.
The newest generation of amplifiers and preamps from McIntosh certainly are voiced to whatever McIntosh feels that their market wants, regardless of the devices used inside. I believe that if Bob Carver could replicate "any" amplifier's sound in a couple of days in a motel room, McIntosh can in their well-equipped Engineering department also duplicate any sound that they want to for their new amplifiers. If it sounds "tube-like", it is because McIntosh management wants it that way. Most likely their new tube amps and preamps are designed to sound a particular way.
If you like the sound of a particular piece, be it vintage or new, that's the one you want. Whether it has tubes or not should not IMO be the reason that you choose it unless you just like looking at glowing glass bottles (I do), in which case it's the asthetics adding to your music experience, which is a good thing too. I feel that most of the vintage audio has its own sound, you can try a C26 or MC2505 if you want warm as much as you can choose a C2700, I'm willing to bet you will hear more "warmth" from a propely serviced 2505 than most any new tube set.
JMO, and I spent a lot of time at the last AXPONA trying to find the line between new tubes and new SS and pick out a new system, could hear as much warmth in some new esoteric SS as other new tube gear. Speakers tended to make much more difference to me.
Kind of like vinyl vs digital, there are fans and fanatics, won't ever be agreement on which is best.
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Porthos
Active Member
In my limited experience I would say the tube power amplifier gives me more of that tube experience. I just finished recapping my Luxman CL-38 last night and hooked it up to my MHA150. The Luxman MA-88's being fed by the MHA150 gave more body to the sound than the CL-38.
The CL-38 & MA-88's both have a 6cg7 & 12BH7 in the signal path for each channel. If your preamplifier and amplifier are made with very linear tubes and a circuit with linearity in mind I would say the power amplifier. After all the signal has to go through hundreds of meters of copper, output transformers no matter how many thousands of dollars are pumped into them are always an art of compromise.
Compromise or no I love the sound of tube amps but am not opposed to solid state. Both can be excellent.
The CL-38 & MA-88's both have a 6cg7 & 12BH7 in the signal path for each channel. If your preamplifier and amplifier are made with very linear tubes and a circuit with linearity in mind I would say the power amplifier. After all the signal has to go through hundreds of meters of copper, output transformers no matter how many thousands of dollars are pumped into them are always an art of compromise.
Compromise or no I love the sound of tube amps but am not opposed to solid state. Both can be excellent.
Two Socks
Active Member
In my very limited audio experience I have a Mcintosh C11 that I have paired with a few different SS Amps. One was a Pioneer M91 I had the matching C91 Preamp..Very shrill but when I took the C91 out and added
the C11 It was night and day better...Smooth very Punchy. Now Im thinking I should have keep that amp...still have the C11 though.
the C11 It was night and day better...Smooth very Punchy. Now Im thinking I should have keep that amp...still have the C11 though.
jblnut
Don't Overthink It
I gotta go with Justice Stewart on this one. It's hard to define the tube sound, but "i know it when I hear it" ;-).
Its some combo of higher noise floor, midrange emphasis and second order harmonics. At this stage of the game for me, it's something to be added way upstream on a input by input basis (DAC or phono pre). I still like that sound, but it doesn't work for every kind of music imho.
Jblnut
Its some combo of higher noise floor, midrange emphasis and second order harmonics. At this stage of the game for me, it's something to be added way upstream on a input by input basis (DAC or phono pre). I still like that sound, but it doesn't work for every kind of music imho.
Jblnut