Turntable advice

[nateyaro]

Hey everyone.

I've been spending countless hours looking around on here trying to figure out what in the world I should get but I'm having some issues. There seem to be so many ways to go with turntables.
I'm relatively inexperienced. I have only owned one record player in the past, a Marantz 6300 I got super lucky and got it from a thrift store in perfect condition for $20 at the time. I sold it due to different priorities in life (sadly you live and learn) and have now come back to wanting something to play my vinyl on.

My budget is about $400-$450 max. That would include the cartridge. I know its not huge and thats where I'm looking for advice. I love the look of a simple vintage table like the Acoustic Research XA. but I have no experience working on them. I'm not apposed to the idea, but it does seem intimidating to get something that might need a lot of work right away.

I as well have heard great things about the earlier Denon models of turntables. I have found a denon DP-1100 close to me for $400. I like the idea of being able to swap things out and progressively upgrade as I get more into things.

Many people around the internet also have stated it might be better to get something new like the project debut carbon. I tend to lean toward older gear and really like more of a natural wood grain kind of look. I'm running this through a Onkyo TX-2500 and a couple of ESS speakers with Heil tweeters.

So when it comes down to it, would you suggest a cheaper table and nicer cartridge? if so which one?
Or would you suggest a mid range to nicer table right away? again, which one?

Any opinion is welcomed. I have no preference on tone arms, as don't know enough about it yet. Same with the drive style. The belt drive sounds like something that would be a good fit, but with no experience with anything other than the direct drive Marantz I'm unsure.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I was trying to answer my own questions through searching but got to the point where I felt I should just ask.

 

[bang4buck]

I was just going to say the same thing! I saw a Dual, too.

That said, I think an AR XA would be perfect for you. There really isn't much to a basic tune-up (see here: http://vinylnirvana.com/ar-diy-do-it-yourself/basic-service-to-an-ar-xa/). The problem is finding one locally, but with a little patience that should be doable.

Personally I'm done buying TTs on ebay. Just too nerve-wracking because a large percentage of sellers have no clue how to properly pack it.

 

[spark1]

Spend $150 on a good vintage turntable and $300 on a high-quality cartridge. In my experience, this can yield significantly better performance than a new $500 TT/cartridge combination. But of course there is some risk that the vintage table will need some maintenance work...usually fairly simple, but not always.

I have two AR XAs, both modified for better performance. Keep in mind that this is a manual turntable, and has no cueing lever.

 

[nateyaro]

I did see those Pioneers. I was debating if it was a good idea to go for that PL-A45D and then upgrade the cartridge.

I was just going to say the same thing! I saw a Dual, too.

That said, I think an AR XA would be perfect for you. There really isn't much to a basic tune-up (see here: http://vinylnirvana.com/ar-diy-do-it-yourself/basic-service-to-an-ar-xa/). The problem is finding one locally, but with a little patience that should be doable.

Personally I'm done buying TTs on ebay. Just too nerve-wracking because a large percentage of sellers have no clue how to properly pack it.

I've been watching craigslist like a crazy person. Trying to keep my travel time to a minimum but I'm guessing I'll end up driving a couple hours somewhere just to get something decent. Thats alright though... Having previously lived on the west coast its amazing to me how few great vintage electronics are for sale in the mid west vs the coasts...

The AR XA does look really appealing. I think it will be very difficult to find one out here if I didn't use Ebay. I understand the apprehension toward it however.

Spend $150 on a good vintage turntable and $300 on a high-quality cartridge. In my experience, this can yield significantly better performance than a new $500 TT/cartridge combination. But of course there is some risk that the vintage table will need some maintenance work...usually fairly simple, but not always.

I have two AR XAs, both modified for better performance. Keep in mind that this is a manual turntable, and has no cueing lever.

I think this is the way I'm leaning, but it still leaves lots of room to figure out what in the world to pick.

I'm not worries about the manual aspect of a table. I plan to only use it when I'm sitting there purposefully listening anyway.

 

[doctor fuse]

One thing that surprised me when I upgraded from a low-end Technics SL-220 to a Thorens TD160, was that the Thorens sounded WAY better with the cheapo AT cartridge it came with, than the Technics with an expensive Grado 8Mz stylus on it.

I would blow most of your budget on the absolute best table you can get, with some left over for an entry level cartridge; Grado Black (as long as it doesn't hum on the table - it hums on my Thorens), AT95E (I'm not a fan but many like it), etc.

Then in a few years you can play the "upgrade-the-cartridge/stylus" game, and say goodbye to all your discretionary money!

EDIT: You may also be pleasantly surprised that the vintage table you get has a very decent cartridge on it, which only needs a new stylus (most often well under $100).

 

[Grenadeslio]

I did see those Pioneers. I was debating if it was a good idea to go for that PL-A45D and then upgrade the cartridge.



I've been watching craigslist like a crazy person. Trying to keep my travel time to a minimum but I'm guessing I'll end up driving a couple hours somewhere just to get something decent. Thats alright though... Having previously lived on the west coast its amazing to me how few great vintage electronics are for sale in the mid west vs the coasts...

The AR XA does look really appealing. I think it will be very difficult to find one out here if I didn't use Ebay. I understand the apprehension toward it however.



I think this is the way I'm leaning, but it still leaves lots of room to figure out what in the world to pick.

I'm not worries about the manual aspect of a table. I plan to only use it when I'm sitting there purposefully listening anyway.

I've purchased a half dozen tt's on eBay without issue, if there were Ebay's buyer protection plan would cover it. If you don't use eBay your choices are severely limited. With your budget many nice tables are within reach.

AR XA: My main table for most of two decades.



Thorens TD166MKII : Great table but I prefer the AR's SQ, but the Thorens is no slouch and definitely looks better.

Kenwood KD500 / 600: The secret is out on these once TOTL Kennys so the prices are rising but I think you can still find one within budget.


Kenwood KD770D: Finding this table within budget might be difficult but I saw one on eBay about ten months ago for under $350 so still possible.

 

[Legrace]

If the Denon is still available I say jump.

 

[triode17]

Why buy a used, vintage table. You can buy a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon ( carbon fibre tonearm) with an Ortofon 2M Red for $399 new. I recently got a carbon Espirit with the 2M Blue for $731 and it's very good. The AR is nice but it has a sprung chassis. This can be problematic unless you can balance the springs properly. Plus the arm looks a little heavy on those.

 

[Guest126]

I have to agree with an earlier post concerning ebay: This is an excellent source for finding quality vintage turntables. I've bought two turntables from ebay so far with good results. You have to read/examine the ads very carefully, as vintage is a quaint way of saying "used", which is essentially what you are looking to buy. Vintage is different, in that you are buying typically a very old instrument that may have appreciated in value over time. You want to get a very reliable machine that will play your records and accent your system beautifully.

So to your point of what to get, the only advice I can give you is to go with what you know. If you know of a certain brand that is of high quality, or if there is a favorite brand that you like, then shop those machines first and find an excellent example that you want. Its my opinion that a good vintage turntable will at least match the performance of a new table, and could outperform many newer machines. The key is to shop wisely and take your time. Also note: You get what you pay for, so try not to cheapen out on a good craft. Good tables can be pricey, and if you find a table that's complete and you like it, then the price is what it is. Good luck.

 

[blownsi]

Buy what you want. Those older Denon's are gorgeous as are the Thorens and others that people pointed out. Just know this: I bought 11 used turntables at yard sales before getting one that actually worked. I spent tons of hours investigating them, buying parts, lubing, cleaning etc. The one that worked was a Dual 604 which served me well for a few years before I upgraded to a nicer used belt drive table (Thorens), then a nicer one (Rega) and then I finally bought a new VPI. I would have save tons of blood, sweat, tears and dollars just buying a nice brand new table from the start.

 

[nateyaro]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! Its funny, it just shows how tastes vary from person to person to see the responses.

After reading all your replies I have my eye on a Thorens TD166 mkii right now. I'm seeing if I can work something out with the owner.
It currently has a Signet cartridge on it which I don't know much about.

I think when I'm really honest with myself, its about sound quality first, but followed closely by the visual appeal of the turntable itself.
I currently have a custom record stand platform and record cabinet being built for the record player so I'd like it to be the "crown jewel" so to speak of the setup.

I appreciate all the feedback and I'll be sure to let everyone know how things play out!

 

[tmtomh]

I am in no way a turntable expert, but for what it's worth, with a $500-and-under budget, I'd have to agree with those who are recommending getting a vintage turntable.

There are of course some very good new units. But the specs (including wow and flutter and signal-to-noise ratio, which make a real difference) are better on the vintage units. And the vintage units often are heavier. with better isolation, better speed accuracy, and often fully automatic operation.

In the higher price categories there are some amazing new units. But for the lower-price range, I'd go vintage.

And just to be clear, I'm not being a snob here: I'm in the lower price category myself.

 

[bang4buck]

After reading all your replies I have my eye on a Thorens TD166 mkii right now. I'm seeing if I can work something out with the owner.
It currently has a Signet cartridge on it which I don't know much about.

A vintage Thorens in your budget range and bought in person is about as good as it gets.

Signet was an attempt by Audio Technica to create an upscale brand. They were fine cartridges in their day but replacement styli are now hard to find, unless you go for the corresponding AT stylus. So there really isn't much value in a used Signet cartridge.

 

[nateyaro]

A vintage Thorens in your budget range and bought in person is about as good as it gets.

Signet was an attempt by Audio Technica to create an upscale brand. They were fine cartridges in their day but replacement styli are now hard to find, unless you go for the corresponding AT stylus. So there really isn't much value in a used Signet cartridge.

Looks like I'm going to pick up the TD166mkii tomorrow for $350. Not bad!

I'll see how the cartridge it comes with sounds. but is there one I should consider as a good replacement right away?

Thanks for the help everyone. I've secretly wanted one of these for a long time, and having you all post about getting what you want, and the different tables that you can't really go wrong with helped a lot.

 

[bang4buck]

Thumbs up!

A word of caution, don't do what I did with my first Thorens. I felt really smart putting it on the back seat instead of in the trunk, and securing it with a seat belt. Little did I know that one hard stop for somebody cutting me off later, the outer platter would follow Newton's laws of motion and keep traveling until it bent the motor shaft. It never did sound as good as it should have after that. Ah well, not the stupidest thing I did at that age.

The way to do it is dustcover off (careful, the hinges are fragile), outer platter and belt off, counterweight off. I also like to take the tonearm "wand" off on these, especially if the stylus guard is missing. Tie some insulated wire or a rubber band across the arm lift bar, to secure the rest of the arm.

Edited to add: As for the cartridge, it all depends on the condition of the stylus. If it can't be trusted anymore, it will be easier to replace the whole thing. The Mk II has a very "light" tonearm (low effective mass) which means your choices in current cartridges are somewhat limited. Ortofon and Shure are two available, and very classic, options.

 

[doctor fuse]

You will be very pleased with it. "Authoritative" is the word that is bandied about, that seems correct.

I replaced the thin particle board base with a 3/4" piece of birch plywood, and put some dollar store plasticine inside the plinth, all around the joins. I didn't dampen the platter; some say it rings, but I have never heard it. And some say the 166's inner platter made of rubber is better for not ringing, than the metal one on the 160.

And it's endless fun (and insanity) to play around and fiddle with the tonearm and cartridge alignment. VTA is a bit of a pain, but fun to hear the difference with different angles.

If you have a friend with a 3D printer, get him/her to make you the plastic part of the headshell, and then figure out a way to wire it up and screw it to the arm (and tell me how to do it when you figure it out!). It' nice to be able to swap cartridges in the future.

EnjoY!

 

[Ken Boyd]

Some of the Signet Carts are great, make sure you give a try before you just write it off.

 

[pjsjr]

I have the Shure 97xE on my Thorens MK 166 MKII. I also did the base upgrade and added Vibrapods to that base. Nice sounds, you'll enjoy yours. Preston

 

[ctjetta]

I'm in the get the best TT for your money/skimp on the cartridge camp. A good turntable is a sophisticated mechanical product requiring all its parts to work well. And it will cost more/take more time to upgrade if you start with a lesser quality TT.
You can easily find very good new cartridges for not a lot of money (for me =/< $150, for others it may take more) which can then be easily upgraded with a better stylus. I also believe cartridge performance is not linear- more spent doesn't necessarily get you the performance increase you might expect.
Having said all that, I think a Thorens TD166Mkll is a great pick up.

 

[Dan ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ]

People...I deleted several eBay links, because this is not the forum for them. Don't list any more.