Turntable Mats - Opinions

[wanders]

I've just put a new cart (dl-301-2) on my Grace 940. The small height of the cart makes it impossible to level the arm to set proper vta. So, as a quick fix, I tossed a felt mat on top of the regular Thorens rubber mat. That leveled the arm, set vta properly, and enhanced sound measurably. Now, I'm going to have to put a spacer between the cart and the headshell anyway: I'm using two mats. But this got me wondering about the value of after-market turntable mats.

I'll probably ruffle some feathers by stating that I'm a skeptic, and I'll probably start an argument by saying that, IMHO, cork and felt mats look stupid. (To me, the oem, rubber mat looks handsome. But, apparently, some farmer kissed a cow, or maybe it was a sheep.)

Anyway, opinions on mats would be apprciated.

 

[sqlsavior]

I've owned two aftermarket mats. One is an older anti-static mat, which has conductive fibers embedded in the medium-stiff felt, and works really well. I don't know if they are available anymore.

The other is a thick Herbie's mat, used to replace the stock concentric-ring-ribbed mat of heavy rubber on a Denon DP1200. It was about 1/4 inch thick foam rubber with a thin skin of denser rubber, selected to match the existing mat's thickness. The Herbie's mat so muddied the sound that it didn't last half an hour.

My working theory is that, if you can't totally couple the record to the platter, with vacuum devices, rings, whatever, then the best mat is one that isolates the record, either relatively uniformly with felt-like material, or more completely with rings, spokes, ribs, dots, etc. A partial-couple, with energy free to leave the record, be altered, and return, is exactly what is undesirable.

 

[hifitommy]

i tend to go for the harder rubber mats or if you can find a Plattrt Matter mat for reasonable money, you may be quite happy as it is a bit thicker than regular mats.

if you put the felt mat under the regular one and use a record clamp, it may also be to your liking. i prefer clamps to weights and a good one tha't not too heavy can be had from KAB:

https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/accesss.htm

 

[Ilikevinyl]

I'm using a DIY leather mat for my Thorens TD-160. It's the best mat I've tried on it! A platter mat can really alter the sound! The original Thorens mat sounds terrible!!

 

[muovimies]

I'm using a DIY leather mat for my Thorens TD-160. It's the best mat I've tried on it! A platter mat can really alter the sound! The original Thorens mat sounds terrible!!

What did you not like about the sound with the original Thorens mat? Also, was it all old and hardened, or did you do anything to revitalize it? I'm asking, because I really like the stock mat, though I gave it a good soak in dishwashing soap to make it soft again. Cork mat for example was a clear step down in SQ from the original Thorens mat. I'm a bit puzzled it's got such a bad rep, when in my system I find it hard to fault it on anything.

 

[Ilikevinyl]

What did you not like about the sound with the original Thorens mat? Also, was it all old and hardened, or did you do anything to revitalize it? I'm asking, because I really like the stock mat, though I gave it a good soak in dishwashing soap to make it soft again. Cork mat for example was a clear step down in SQ from the original Thorens mat. I'm a bit puzzled it's got such a bad rep, when in my system I find it hard to fault it on anything.

I don't like the mid-range sound with the original Thorens mat. The mid-range always sounded sharp & cold to me. The leather mat sounds so natural, mid-range is much smoother sounding, more intimate. When you try different platter materials that sound good, and then go back to the Thorens mat, you can hear how bad it sounds. Cork sounds better than the Thorens mat. This is the Thorens mat I'm talking about.

 

[vinylkid58]

The other is a thick Herbie's mat, used to replace the stock concentric-ring-ribbed mat of heavy rubber on a Denon DP1200. It was about 1/4 inch thick foam rubber with a thin skin of denser rubber, selected to match the existing mat's thickness. The Herbie's mat so muddied the sound that it didn't last half an hour.

I've got a 5mm Herbie's mat on my SL-1200M3D. Sounds great, go figure.

jeff

 

[WaynerN]

Of course you realize its the synergy of the cartridge/mat/arm/table (I'll stop it there) that makes or breaks the deal. There is no clear cut winner in projects like this, because there are simply too many variables to deal with. You do have to experiment and determine for yourself which mat sounds the best, and which one sounds the best averaging thru your record collection. One mat might sound good on one LP and sound like **** on another....just sayin'.............

'ner

 

[wanders]

What did you not like about the sound with the original Thorens mat? Also, was it all old and hardened, or did you do anything to revitalize it? I'm asking, because I really like the stock mat, though I gave it a good soak in dishwashing soap to make it soft again. Cork mat for example was a clear step down in SQ from the original Thorens mat. I'm a bit puzzled it's got such a bad rep, when in my system I find it hard to fault it on anything.

The new cart, being less tall, rrequired the tonearm to be lowered, but it was out of downward adjustment. To level the tonearm (and set vta) I had to raise the record or put a spacer between the cart and headshell. The felt was very thick, so putting it on top of the rubber mat raised the record enough to get the arm level. Getting the vta correct was, I think, the main factor in getting correct sound, not the felt.

 

[try1256]

I just got a cork and rubber mat for my TD-160. It definitely sounds different. Much more separation of the instruments and vocals in the sound stage. On some records, it seems like I lost a little top end but it's probably the record. I didn't think the stock mat sounded bad, I just wanted to try something different to see how much improvement could be had. I also kinda like the look of the cork. To each his own though.

 

[cdk99]

I've been playing with stick-on felt dots, normally used for furniture legs and so forth. Made a pattern of them on my rubber mat to experiment with, so far it sounds fine to me and the VTA eyes up better.

The dots are cheap and come in different thicknesses. They are firmer stuff than the old Discwasher mat I bought from a dinosaur.

 

[wanders]

I'm curious why one material would sound better than another. Obviously, if the mat allows the record to slip, or doesn't keep it flat (with a weight or clamp), then it would be defective. Perhaps certain materials have different damping characteristics, which could "flavor" sound making it a personal preference thing.

Seems, though, that most turntable manufactures use rubber mats.? If cork or felt were superior; it would be cheap enough to use (something like leather could be expensive.).

Wonder if there is a consensus material used on "price-is-no-object" turntables? What I have seen in expensive set-ups is common use of ring weights.

 

[bobins08]

I'm using a DIY leather mat for my Thorens TD-160. It's the best mat I've tried on it! A platter mat can really alter the sound! The original Thorens mat sounds terrible!!

When my TD160 was mostly stock I went from original, to cork, to a thick Technics rubber mat flipped over.

Time moves on and I have completed all the damping mos to the table/chassis. I use a clamp now. Then put a fluid damper on my tone arm. One day I decided to try the original Thorens mat again. Low and behold .... I like it!

The sound is more lively with the stock mat. There is more slam. The flipped over rubber mat seems to drain away some of the energy in comparison. Cork too. I don't recall using a clamp with the stock mat before but it is my preference right now.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Ilikevinyl]

When my TD160 was mostly stock I went from original, to cork, to a thick Technics rubber mat flipped over.

Time moves on and I have completed all the damping mos to the table/chassis. I use a clamp now. Then put a fluid damper on my tone arm. One day I decided to try the original Thorens mat again. Low and behold .... I like it!

The sound is more lively with the stock mat. There is more slam. The flipped over rubber mat seems to drain away some of the energy in comparison. Cork too. I don't recall using a clamp with the stock mat before but it is my preference right now.

Cheers, Bob

Glad you like the Thorens mat. For me it's staying off!! Can't stand that sharp cutting mid-range it has, especially on vocals! All my other mats sound much better in comparison!

Another thing I don't like about that Thorens mat, you can hear much groove noise, from the record not being supported on much of it.

 

[bobins08]

Glad you like the Thorens mat. For me it's staying off!! Can't stand that sharp cutting mid-range it has, especially on vocals! All my other mats sound much better in comparison!

Another thing I don't like about that Thorens mat, you can hear much groove noise, from the record not being supported on much of it.

I randomly decided to try the Thorens mat and I like it with the DL 301. The mid range is fine. In fact the mids and highs are better now. The other mat was a bit draining in comparison.

I think Wayner's comment on synergy (post #8) is quite valid. My table has seen many changes since I abandoned the stock mat (chassis damping, platter damping, bearing polish, new thrust plate, re-tuned suspension, upgraded arm board, new belt, new upgraded RCAs and cables, fluid damping tone arm, and cartridge change from MM to LOMC). It is conceivable that after all the changes that another mat might be a better match now.

... the stock mat looks good too! :thmbsp:

Cheers, Bob

 

[muovimies]

I found with the cork mat the sound became too soft and dull, while the original preserved detail better and sounded more lively. I did some experiment in my other tables as well and I've come to the conclusion that for me and my systems, less support for the record is generally better, while the flat cork was the worst and different rubber mats varied, but generally better to have less support.

Like it was already pointed out, it's all about synergy between components. In fact since I changed carts on my Thorens I might try the cork again just for fun.

 

[cscottrun4it]

While I do not own a Thorens, I do use a cork mat: the Corkstone Turntable Mat.

I know it looks a bit unusual. (Earlier, an AK'er accused me of drinking too much wine and throwing up on the mat.) However, I both like the look and, more importantly, the sound improvement it makes. I don't know how to describe it, really, but music just sounds more "live."

I tried another cork mat about 3 months ago, but I ran back to the Corkstone.

For those with VTA issues above, I had the same problem but overcame it with a little adjustment to the tracking force and, in the end, a "shim" designed to go between the cart and the tonearm. It worked brilliantly and I am convinced the shim has further helped decouple the cart from the tonearm. (I bought it from a guy in Australia.)

Further, I am convinced the cork mat has helped reduce the static issues with my vinyl. (If you've ever lived in the dryness of the West, you know what I am dealing with.)

Just my thoughts....

 

[hifitommy]

after looking at the thorens mat with those ridges that leave much of the vinyl surface unsupported suggest to me that if you just turn the mat upside down, an improvement is quite possible.

 

[muovimies]

after looking at the thorens mat with those ridges that leave much of the vinyl surface unsupported suggest to me that if you just turn the mat upside down, an improvement is quite possible.

Not really, because there's a hole in the center of the mat for the 45rpm adapter, and on the other side of the mat surrounding that hole is a ridge, so the record would only be supported by a ring the size of the outer edge of a 45rpm center hole...

My opinion is that despite the poor reputation, the original mat really doesn't need to be improved upon, but these mats are 40 years old now, so it might be necessary to bring some life back into the rubber by soaking it in dishwashing soap for example. In my experiments a flat 3mm thick cork mat just deadened the sound, making it dull and sucking the life out of the music. Replacing the mat with cork dots, so that the record only had a little support from the mat, there was not much if any difference on the sound compared to the original mat, so I just stuck with it because I like the looks and sound. I also tried a couple different rubber mats from vintage japanese tables, but they were worse than the original, again less lively and more dull. I haven't tried any other materials or expensive mats, but at the moment I really don't feel the need to fiddle with it.

My system is all vintage and quite warm sounding though revealing (JVC JR-S600mkII with Kef 104aB), so YMMV of course. Cork sheets are cheap and quite easily workable, and it's fun to experiment, so my advice for anyone getting a vintage Thorens would be to first craft together a couple different cork mats (flat & dotted for example) and use them while bringing the original back to life, and then do a comparison of all three. That's for basically no expense, then of course you can sink hundreds of $ into different mats if you go crazy.

 

[hifitommy]

hey, i just LOVE the kef 104ab speakers. but a mat is something that one could spend a couple of bucks on like one from herbies. i have acrylic on my SOTA sapphire so i dont need one but then i have other mats for my kd500 such as the platter matter. my grace 707 has mo prob adjusting to different VTA heights so whatever mat i use is ok.