Turntable with no rumble & no diamonds or golden wires

[MBentefor]

Well first of all - if paying 400$, I can pay 500$ for VICTOR QL-Y44F for example. Which will be (I suppose) much better one.
But actually, that one (both) is selling far from my city. So I can't check all functions. That's another plus for taking a lower (but still good) one - PL-5 for example. Not 400$ to lose, but only 100$. And only tiny improvements lost from not taking the 707.

However thanks for your point. I am adding +1 to the 707 in my virtual selection list.

 

[dmckean]

I wouldn't rule out a P-mount linear tracker altogether, Audio-Technica made a lot of great P-mount cartridges. The AT92 is available in T4P and is really close to the AT95, maybe even a tad better.

 

[ETI_5000]

I recommend that Pioneer 707. $400 is not much for it. But need to check all functions - it is filled with electronic features.

I agree - it's a very good turntable, with what should be a good tonearm. See http://www.thevintageknob.org/pioneer-PL-707.html and http://www.vinylengine.com/library/pioneer/pl-707.shtml . It may not have gold wires, but you can't have everything.

 

[ETI_5000]

Well first of all - if paying 400$, I can pay 500$ for VICTOR QL-Y44F for example. Which will be (I suppose) much better one.
But actually, that one (both) is selling far from my city. So I can't check all functions. That's another plus for taking a lower (but still good) one - PL-5 for example. Not 400$ to lose, but only 100$. And only tiny improvements lost from not taking the 707.

However thanks for your point. I am adding +1 to the 707 in my virtual selection list.

The Victor is heavier, the same for signal to noise ratio, and better for wow and flutter, so is probably worth slightly more than the Pioneer PL-707. They are both good turntables though, so it comes down to which is in better condition, and how easy they are to get without destroying anything. The Victor does have the advantage of electronic damping and antiskating for the horizontal direction of the tonearm, so cartridge resonance will be very low horizontally, which improves noise and distortion. See http://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/player/ql-y44f.html (use an online translator).

The Pioneer PL-5 is significantly lighter, so worth quite a lot less. It looks like a cheaper model than the Victor or the Pioneer PL-707, but should be reasonable for the right price.

 

[MBentefor]

The Victor is heavier, the same for signal to noise ratio, and better for wow and flutter, so is probably worth slightly more than the Pioneer PL-707. They are both good turntables though, so it comes down to which is in better condition, and how easy they are to get without destroying anything. The Victor does have the advantage of electronic damping and antiskating for the horizontal direction of the tonearm, so cartridge resonance will be very low horizontally, which improves noise and distortion. See http://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/player/ql-y44f.html (use an online translator).

The Pioneer PL-5 is significantly lighter, so worth quite a lot less. It looks like a cheaper model than the Victor or the Pioneer PL-707, but should be reasonable for the right price.

Ok, so taking into account all of this, we will cross out Denons (because I have a Denon device and because they are either with damaged cover or with no cover).
Also crossing out 445 - it has no advantages, the PL-5 is better (right?) and cheaper.

So.
Victor QL-Y44F for 500$ (from Japanese auction can be bought for 300$ including shipping - but I am afraid to pay so much for something so far away...) - 80 dB rumble, 0.008 RMS wow - what's the difference with WRMS?, Quartz, ? size platter, Qdamping
Pioneer PL-707 for 400$ - 80dB rumble, 0.025 WRMS wow, Quartz, 310 mm platter, VTA adj.
Pioneer PL-L800 for 312$ - 78dB rumble, 0.025 WRMS wow, Quartz, 320 mm platter, Linear
Pioneer PL-5 for 110$ - 78dB rumble, 0.025 WRMS wow, servo with speed adj, 310 mm platter

All of them are in perfect state.
The reason why I am not getting Victor right away is that I am highly in doubt, whether 2 dB better rumble, quartz and VTA are so important and worth 290$.
Or 10 more mm of platter, linear tracking and quartz worth 200$.

I mean if DC servo motor is in good state, the rotation will be same stable as with quartz, no?
310 mm should be enough for 12'' LP.
So actually there are following pros (comparing to the cheapest model):
Victor - Qdamping and 2 dB better rumble - 400$ more
707 - VTA adj. and 2 dB better rumble - 300$ more
L800 - Linear - 200$ more

If only any of these (even Victor for 500$) had 78 rpm option - I would take it right away!
But in this situation it seems for me that I will be definitely over-paying if not taking PL-5.

Maybe someone can point me towards some <600$ TTs with 78 rpm option and -58 dB weighted (-78 unweighted) rumble?

 

[MBentefor]

Let me quote Jason Mraz: "Damn!"

Seems I found a TT which can possibly almost beat the hell of those 4 in my eyes.

It's Numark TTX (not TTX1, not TTXusb) sold by some guy for 315$.
It has -79 dB rumble (-58 unweighted), 78 rpm speed, quartz stabilization and VTA adjustment.

Actually the only thing it misses (as to my taste) - is a dust cover.
I don't like sound coming from stylus itself.

But if that guy proves everything is perfect (by the way, what tests should I ask for?) - I think I will go for it.

Internet anonymice say this one is better than Technics_THE_KING_OF_DJs.

p.s I am no dj.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Not anywhere close in reality. It also has a tonearm which does not inspire confidence. Numark is good for cheap, but that Victor in proper order is many times superior in performance in the real world.

 

[Dennis Gardner]

Bench racing turntable's specs has usually left me with boring, lifeless sound.......the best sound has always been achieved with odd pairings that seem to give more in terms of true listening enjoyment than their respected measurements would ever show.

 

[MBentefor]

Not anywhere close in reality. It also has a tonearm which does not inspire confidence. Numark is good for cheap, but that Victor in proper order is many times superior in performance in the real world.

Thank you for answer, sir. But I don't see any digits or proofs in your statement. While in my case I provided needed data that shows - Numark is certainly no worse than Victor or others.
I'll repeat myself: it's same story as with CD/SACD comparison. 99.9% audiophiles state they hear difference. While actually double blind test were made which officially proved - there is no difference which can be hearable. (Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback; E. BRAD MEYER, AES Member AND DAVID R. MORAN, AES Member)

Bench racing turntable's specs has usually left me with boring, lifeless sound.......the best sound has always been achieved with odd pairings that seem to give more in terms of true listening enjoyment than their respected measurements would ever show.

True, however rumble in those devices I listened to was always similar to one stated.
So I'd rather believe this specification in popular brands (not the Chinese ones).
I all other parameters I'm both hands for listening comparison.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

No digits needed. Numark is built to a price point not to a quality standard. The tonearm bearings to my hand feel sloppy even on new ones. I find the turntable acceptable, but the tonearm does not meet my criteria for good performance and durability. And Numark is not my idea of consistent from turntable to turntable. That short, straight, underhung tonearm has no offset angle, unacceptably high tracking error, and can not be aligned to correct geometry, and useful for conical styli only.

JVC/Victor in Japan at their finest gave us CD-4 Quadraphonic records, half speed mastering, they invented and built top notch equipment which met high standards for performance. Their best turntables meet very high standards and are owned and used by demanding users. Their specifications I trust far more than I trust Numark, as they were in the 1960's-1980's a leading fine Japanese manufacturers of general quality electronics. The Victor you find inferior to that Numark is regarded on par with high end Sony and Denon turntables, respected and owned by many folks here. And which continue to meet those high standards over 30 years later in daily use. And can be relied on. Big difference. My standards for disc playback are identical to that of the finest classical stations and easy listening stations, not to that of scratch DJ artists. I come from a broadcasting background, and a veteran engineer. I trust that Victor to meet it's published specifications some over 30 years later without a second thought, as Japanese Victor Company had the engineering and craftsmanship to back them up.

 

[MBentefor]

I find the turntable acceptable, but the tonearm does not meet my criteria for good performance and durability.

Well, in some time I can replace tonearm, can't I?

That short, straight, underhung tonearm has no offset angle, unacceptably high tracking error, and can not be aligned to correct geometry, and useful for conical styli only.

Hey, hey, hold on! I didn't even think about using "that short tonearm" Only the S-shaped one which is included!

Big difference.

Alright, now I believe you much more. Really.

I come from a broadcasting background, and a veteran engineer.

In pre-edit post you asked what do I do for living. I am a software engineer. And I trust facts and not a subjective feelings of people who spent a lot of money so of course what they got CAN NOT be bad, no?

Now, Mr. Kent. I can see that you've got some big experience in turntables. Will you please help me in my choice?
I have finally decided everything connected with budget. So...

My current turntable (which will continue being in my use for many years I hope) has 33/45 and, in quiet moments of music, one can hear (being in nice headphones) a metal sound, like vibrations of metal platter. Probably because platter is moving (direct drive). Probably this is what they call RUMBLE. I thought to myself: hey, you can actually buy thousands of turntable that will be no worse than this one, for example Dual 1219 in perfect state; but you wanted to rip your vinyls as perfect as possible, no? You have handmade phono, awesome cartridge, great ADC, but what about that rumble - don't you want to buy something without it? - Yes! I answered. I want.
So my current need is ONLY device which has rumble equal or less than vinyl hiss - -58 dB or better. (that's unweighted of course)

• And I am ready to pay up to 200$ for working device with no serious damage to cover.
• Or up to 300$ for a perfect-looking device with "all the stuff" - VTA adj, quartz, qdamping, (what else does turntable need?? I mean omitting counterweight and anti-skate control and other obvious things)
• Or up to let me say 450$ for working device with no serious damage to cover and 33/45/78 option.
• Or up to 600$ for a perfect-looking with 33/45/78 and "all the stuff"

I am afraid to buy such big things from abroad. But here we have a huge list of items for sale. Even some pure-japanese ones.

Can you hint me in here sir?
My current list is:
Pioneer PL-L800 for 312$ - 78dB rumble, 0.025 WRMS wow, Quartz, 320 mm platter, Linear
Pioneer PL-5 for 110$ - 78dB rumble, 0.025 WRMS wow, servo with speed adj, 310 mm platter
Numark TTX (not TTX1, not TTXusb) for 315$ - with 33/45/78 but this one seems to have no service-tool and headshell included. (there is full-complected (is that correct word?) one for 500$) - others above my limit.

Thanks!

 

[KentTeffeteller]

On Pioneers, I'd hunt down a PL 518 or a good PL 12-D for a two speed turntable. Most good 3 speed options meeting your criteria would be 4x your budget in the USA even. The PL-L 800 would be more complex than I can recommend and two speed. Turntables are in general getting more expensive these days. The demand is high for better vintage options. For Numark prices, I'd get an Audio-Technica AT-PL 120 instead of the Numark, it is a much better option and has a decent tonearm, 3 speeds, and adjustable VTA, and also comes with an AT 95e. And $300 US gets you a brand new example.

 

[MBentefor]

On Pioneers, I'd hunt down a PL 518 or a good PL 12-D for a two speed turntable.

Oh, probably you misunderstood me. The "required" option is "device which has rumble equal or less than vinyl hiss - -58 dB or better. (that's unweighted of course)".
Neither PL-518 (~-50 dB) nor PL-12D (-47 - hope that is unweighted value; otherwise ouch!) provide that.

The PL-L 800 would be more complex than I can recommend and two speed.

What's wrong with complex devices?

Turntables are in general getting more expensive these days.

Yeah. And in Ukraine we are living hard days, so... "it's so sad sad situation"

For Numark prices, I'd get an Audio-Technica AT-PL 120 instead of the Numark, it is a much better option and has a decent tonearm, 3 speeds, and adjustable VTA, and also comes with an AT 95e. And $300 US gets you a brand new example.

Really? Brand new AT for 300$ is better than Numark which is generally sold for 850$?? What's the reason for that??
And, unfortunately (back in old days I wanted AT 120) that Audio-Technica is also bad in terms of specified rumble.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

IWhat's wrong with complex devices?


Yeah. And in Ukraine we are living hard days, so... "it's so sad sad situation"


Really? Brand new AT for 300$ is better than Numark which is generally sold for 850$?? What's the reason for that??
And, unfortunately (back in old days I wanted AT 120) that Audio-Technica is also bad in terms of specified rumble.[/QUOTE]

A: Where you live, given how sourcing parts for your turntable will be, simplicity is a virtue. B: That Numark can't accept tonearm upgrades. And it is not worth $850, I won't even spend $200 for one. C: The Numark's big problem is that poorly designed tonearm. To get 3 speeds, and to get the rumble spec you want, you're looking at over $1600 US dollars to get that. And possibly even more. That and 3 speeds is a Technics SP series job. Not a Numark job. And that Numark tonearm is not for someone who seeks the performance you want. It does not meet the criteria for an acceptable tonearm and best suited even on the S arm to lower end cartridges. The Numark works fine in the nightclub and the Hip-Hop/Scratch DJ environments. Not for audiophile use. No matter how well it specs. The highest end cartridge most TTX tonearms ever see is a DJ conical of some kind from Stanton, Shure, or from Ortofon. And usually tracked at like around 3 grams force.

 

[MBentefor]

And it is not worth $850, I won't even spend $200 for one.

I was referring to the minimum price for new on Amazon.

To get 3 speeds, and to get the rumble spec you want, you're looking at over $1600 US dollars to get that. And possibly even more.

Damn =(

Well, thanks anyway. Seems for what I'm willing to pay, its either pl-5 (for 33/45) or that numark (for 78 but doubtful performance).

 

[kirk57]

Thank you for answer, sir. But I don't see any digits or proofs in your statement. While in my case I provided needed data that shows - Numark is certainly no worse than Victor or others.
I'll repeat myself: it's same story as with CD/SACD comparison. 99.9% audiophiles state they hear difference. While actually double blind test were made which officially proved - there is no difference which can be hearable. (Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback; E. BRAD MEYER, AES Member AND DAVID R. MORAN, AES Member)


True, however rumble in those devices I listened to was always similar to one stated.
So I'd rather believe this specification in popular brands (not the Chinese ones).
I all other parameters I'm both hands for listening comparison.

Well, it's a process. A lot of us speak from many years of experience. You seem certain your approach is the correct one, and it may be. It also may not be.

 

[mythless]

How bad is the damage on the Denon DP-45f? Can it be polished out?

 

[tri_pod]

Hello from Cape Town
I am a great fan of Micro Seiki and Micro turntables. I have a Micro Seiki BL-51 belt drive and also a Micro MR-711 direct drive (and of course several Garrard 301's but that is another story.

I'm not quite sure why my beltdrive BL-51 and the direct drive MR-711 were called Micro Seiki and Micro as I'm sure they were made by the same firm.

Micro Seiki made many different models and their engineering and finish are really A1.

Regarding Russian made turntables, I have seen a few pics over the years and it would be nice if you could start another thread to let us know about some Russian gear ie turntables, tonearms, cartridges??, and so on.

Best of luck with your search.

tri_pod

 

[muovimies]

I'm not quite sure why my beltdrive BL-51 and the direct drive MR-711 were called Micro Seiki and Micro as I'm sure they were made by the same firm.

I'm under the impression they were simply known as 'Micro' in Japan and 'Micro Seiki' was used on (at least some) foreign markets.

 

[MBentefor]

Guys, sorry for the late response.
Email nofications simply stopped arriving, so I decided noone is answering here anymore.

How bad is the damage on the Denon DP-45f? Can it be polished out?

Ha-ha, of course not. It's a cover dust crash.
Let me send you the pic: http://img36.olx.ua/images_slandocomua/272785068_1_1000x700_proigryvatel-denon-dp-45f-lugansk.jpg

Hello from Cape Town
I am a great fan of Micro Seiki and Micro turntables. I have a Micro Seiki BL-51 belt drive and also a Micro MR-711 direct drive (and of course several Garrard 301's but that is another story.

I'm not quite sure why my beltdrive BL-51 and the direct drive MR-711 were called Micro Seiki and Micro as I'm sure they were made by the same firm.

Micro Seiki made many different models and their engineering and finish are really A1.

Regarding Russian made turntables, I have seen a few pics over the years and it would be nice if you could start another thread to let us know about some Russian gear ie turntables, tonearms, cartridges??, and so on.

Best of luck with your search.

tri_pod

And hello to you too!
Micro Seiki is a well reknown manufacturer. I doubt they make something poor. However the prices are crazy for most of low-rumble or 78 ones (were there any other except 1500?)
Regarding Soviet stuff.
Well, actually I can do that eventually. Where should I post such things?
For now I have already recorded one video (attention: SUPER POOR VIDEO WITH A DUMB ME SAYING RUBBISH STUFF) on a request of some guy from vinylengine.
There will be at least one more.
If you want to waste your time, check 1st here:

And last point: I've bought Numark TTX.
And I am 100% damn glad with it!
It has only one negative thing probably: the antiskating knob has no digits - just some lines. So I guess the only proper way to set it up would be using a test record. No "VTF - 25%" or smth like that.