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Two P-Mount upgrade options (opinions needed)

ClayTune

Well-Known Member
Considering the following two P-mount upgrades for a Linear tracking turntable. First is pickering TLV 625E and the second is LPgear reference series VL.

Now I hear a lot of people go on non-stop about how great Pickering cartridges are. The one they're selling on LPgear comes with an adapter which I obviously wouldn't use. I suppose then I would just be using the silver part?

Anyway, it says it comes with a high polished ellptical which sounds neato. The LPgear reference series VL on the other hand has a vivid line diamond!

I am at a loss. Would like to hear from those who have experiences with both.

I am upgrading from LPgears carbon fidelity cartridge, which actually is not bad at all. Just wanna try other things out.

Listen to a ton of jazz, some rock, punk and percussive music too. Some strings also.

I'm all ears.
 
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Hmmm, specs for the Pickering would seem odd:

"- Tracking force: 2-5 grams" Hmmm - unlikely for a regular T4P cart.

"- Stylus tip: Elliptical .0004 x 0.0007 inch high-polish" Hmmm - for a D625E?

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Hmmm, specs for the Pickering would seem odd:

"- Tracking force: 2-5 grams" Hmmm - unlikely for a regular T4P cart.

"- Stylus tip: Elliptical .0004 x 0.0007 inch high-polish" Hmmm - for a D625E?

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
So which one are you recommending?
 
The LPGear reference Series VL is nothing but an inexpensive and ubiquitous AT “wedge” p-mount with a VL bonded stylus. That cart was sold under MANY names since the 1980s. It’s an AT91 under the hood. It has a “lean” sound to it.

The Stanton is a p-mount version of the 681/Pickering XV15. It’s a VERY good cartridge! Even with a good aftermarket stylus it’s very detailed, bold and full, fast and dynamic.

Really not much of a comparison.


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There were a range of stylus alternatives for the Pickering TL/TLV-series, including a Stereohedron (LPGear have a Vivid Line alternative for that), and 0.4 x 0.7mil or 0.3 x 0.7mil elliptical tips, as well as a base-level 0.7mil conical. Since I’ve never owned a Pickering p-mount, I don’t know that much about them, except that in typical Pickering confusing fashion, there were two different stylus carrier shapes which fitted the same cartridges, known as wide or narrow, or sometimes short or tall, which had the same part numbers.

The ‘short’ or ‘wide’ stylus type, which wrapped around the sides of the cartridge body, could take the optional Pickering stylus brush, which of course requires an additional 1g tracking force id it's used (not seen at the tip, so it doesn’t affect record wear – the brush absorbs the extra 1g). The brush-type stylus obviously would only be acceptable for p-mount tonearms with adjustable tracking force when used with the brush, or half-inch mount tonearms using the p-mount adapter, but would be OK for all tonearms when the brush is removed, as it just clips off the stylus grip, and is held by two holes in the stylus grip sides, and two ‘bumps’ in the brush holder, like all Pickering brushes.

The ‘tall’ or ‘narrow’ stylus type wrapped over the top corner of the cartridge, similar to Stanton styli (e.g. 881S) – they are actually held more securely than the wide styli, and may have been an acceptance by the Pickering side of the Pickering/Stanton factory building that the Stanton-type stylus grips were actually better than the Pickering ones! I’ve used both types on the Stanton cartridges I own (881S and 681EEE), and the Stanton ‘wrap over the top’ stylus grips are certainly better than the original Pickering ‘wide’ ones which wrap around the sides of the cartridge bodies, but it probably depends on the luck of the draw which you get – either will fit. Like most Pickering cartridges, there were also near-equivalent Stanton versions.

The cartridges themselves were actually the p-mount versions of the moving iron (sometimes called induced magnet) Pickering XV-15 or Stanton 680/681-series cartridges. Here is (I think) the complete list of the five Pickering p-mount cartridges with their interchangeable styli, the near-equivalent Pickering half-inch mount cartridges, and the equivalent Stanton p-mount cartridges and styli (which should fit the Pickering p-mount cartridges, and are probably easier to find):
  • Cartridge number TLC, stylus number DLC, 0.7mil conical tip, no Stanton equivalent
  • TL-1 or TL-1E or TLV-625E, stylus DTL-1 or DTL-1E, 0.4 x 0.7mil elliptical tip, Stanton equivalent p-mount L727E (replacement stylus Stanton D72E)
  • TL-2 or TL-2E, stylus DTL-2 or DTL-2E, 0.3 x 0.7mil elliptical, Stanton equivalent p-mount cartridge L737E (replacement stylus Stanton D73E)
  • TL-3 or TL-3S, stylus DTL-3 or DTL-3S, bonded Stereohedron tip, half-inch mount close equivalent cartridge XV-15/757S (see LPGear for a Vivid Line replacement of the DTL-3S stylus), Stanton equivalent p-mount L737S (replacement stylus Stanton D73S)
  • TL-4 Super, stylus DTL-4 or DTL-4S, nude Stereohedron, half-inch mount equivalent cartridge XV-15/1800S, Stanton equivalent p-mount L747S (replacement stylus Stanton D74S)
So there are five different Pickering stylus alternatives of different performance and four different Stanton styli, depending on how much you want to spend, or which aftermarket alternatives are offered by your particular vendor. LPGear/LPTunes have close aftermarket replacements for the DLC, DTL-1E, DTL-2E and DTL-3S styli, and probably also the Stanton versions.

Having said that, you could upgrade the stylus of your ‘LPGear’ cartridge, which is made by Audio-Technica. Look up the ATN3472VL (Vivid Line) and ATN3472SA (Shibata) styli on LPGear, and that may be a cheaper option than buying a complete new cartridge, with similar performance between the 3472VL stylus on your current cartridge, and the LPGear Reference Series VL cartridge (the bodies are almost certainly exactly the same, and in fact, the top-end LP Gear T4P Reference Series VML uses the ATN3472ML stylus!). Or for an upgrade (at extra cost!) to the best tip available, try the superb ATN3472ML stylus. I actually have the genuine AT-made ATN3472ML on my AT-92ECD cartridge, and it elevates it a long way above the stock 0.3 x 0.7mil elliptical stylus.

The Vivid Line tip is an extended line contact tip exclusive to LPGear, meaning one with a much longer ‘footprint’ up the groove wall than an elliptical or conical stylus, and given similar tip quality (smoothness/polish) should wear records much less, and produce lower distortion, if it’s aligned properly. That’s because its pressure on the record is much lower for a given unit of area, because the pressure is spread over a much larger surface area. The Vivid Line is the same in radius dimensions to the original (best) Shibata Mk1 tip, that is, 6um x 75µm, or 0.24 x 3 mil, although that doesn’t mean that it’s the same shape as the Shibata 1.

Whether it is similar in polish to the Shibata 1, which is still made by the same company (Namiki Jewel) who developed it with JVC engineer Norio Shibata, after whom it’s named, is unknown (but probably doubtful, seeing it costs a lot less), and we also don’t know who manufactures the Vivid Line for LPGear, and haven’t seen any details on its exact shape, unlike many of the best patented tips. So it’s an unknown quality, although users generally seem to be happy with its sound, and it does cost less.

Note that I'm not making any recommendations - that's up to you to decide which one to buy. If it was me (and you were paying:)), I'd upgrade your current cartridge with one of the ATN3472VL, ATN3472SA or ATN3472ML styli, content in the knowledge that styli for the AT cartridges will be widely available around the world for some years to come.

Possible things to consider are that the Pickering cartridge recommended capacitance load of 275pF is probably much easier to meet for most amplifier and turntable output cable combinations than the very low 100-200pF recommendation for the Audio-Technica cartridges (including the LPGear-branded ones) for the flattest frequency response. If the AT cartridges are loaded with too much capacitance, they'll develop a shrill sound, because an electrical resonant peak is developed in the frequency response in the region between about 6 and 14kHz (depending on the capacitance).

However, to counter that, it's probably much easier to find styli for the AT cartridges, and AT are still manufacturing cartridges and styli, while Pickering isn't.
 
Considering the following two P-mount upgrades for a Linear tracking turntable. First is pickering TLV 625E and the second is LPgear reference series VL.

Now I hear a lot of people go on non-stop about how great Pickering cartridges are. The one they're selling on LPgear comes with an adapter which I obviously wouldn't use. I suppose then I would just be using the silver part?

Anyway, it says it comes with a high polished ellptical which sounds neato. The LPgear reference series VL on the other hand has a vivid line diamond!

I am at a loss. Would like to hear from those who have experiences with both.

I am upgrading from LPgears carbon fidelity cartridge, which actually is not bad at all. Just wanna try other things out.

Listen to a ton of jazz, some rock, punk and percussive music too. Some strings also.

I'm all ears.

I would positively go with the other choice (and I say that as a Pickering/Stanton fan). The VL for the AT is actually a pretty decent stylus (but honestly? Get the original .03 AT elliptical stylus if you can. It's cheaper and a really good decent sounding stylus IMHO)
 
There were a range of stylus alternatives for the Pickering TL/TLV-series, including a Stereohedron (LPGear have a Vivid Line alternative for that), and 0.4 x 0.7mil or 0.3 x 0.7mil elliptical tips, as well as a base-level 0.7mil conical. Since I’ve never owned a Pickering p-mount, I don’t know that much about them, except that in typical Pickering confusing fashion, there were two different stylus carrier shapes which fitted the same cartridges, known as wide or narrow, or sometimes short or tall, which had the same part numbers.

The ‘short’ or ‘wide’ stylus type, which wrapped around the sides of the cartridge body, could take the optional Pickering stylus brush, which of course requires an additional 1g tracking force id it's used (not seen at the tip, so it doesn’t affect record wear – the brush absorbs the extra 1g). The brush-type stylus obviously would only be acceptable for p-mount tonearms with adjustable tracking force when used with the brush, or half-inch mount tonearms using the p-mount adapter, but would be OK for all tonearms when the brush is removed, as it just clips off the stylus grip, and is held by two holes in the stylus grip sides, and two ‘bumps’ in the brush holder, like all Pickering brushes.

The ‘tall’ or ‘narrow’ stylus type wrapped over the top corner of the cartridge, similar to Stanton styli (e.g. 881S) – they are actually held more securely than the wide styli, and may have been an acceptance by the Pickering side of the Pickering/Stanton factory building that the Stanton-type stylus grips were actually better than the Pickering ones! I’ve used both types on the Stanton cartridges I own (881S and 681EEE), and the Stanton ‘wrap over the top’ stylus grips are certainly better than the original Pickering ‘wide’ ones which wrap around the sides of the cartridge bodies, but it probably depends on the luck of the draw which you get – either will fit. Like most Pickering cartridges, there were also near-equivalent Stanton versions.

The cartridges themselves were actually the p-mount versions of the moving iron (sometimes called induced magnet) Pickering XV-15 or Stanton 680/681-series cartridges. Here is (I think) the complete list of the five Pickering p-mount cartridges with their interchangeable styli, the near-equivalent Pickering half-inch mount cartridges, and the equivalent Stanton p-mount cartridges and styli (which should fit the Pickering p-mount cartridges, and are probably easier to find):
  • Cartridge number TLC, stylus number DLC, 0.7mil conical tip, no Stanton equivalent
  • TL-1 or TL-1E or TLV-625E, stylus DTL-1 or DTL-1E, 0.4 x 0.7mil elliptical tip, Stanton equivalent p-mount L727E (replacement stylus Stanton D72E)
  • TL-2 or TL-2E, stylus DTL-2 or DTL-2E, 0.3 x 0.7mil elliptical, Stanton equivalent p-mount cartridge L737E (replacement stylus Stanton D73E)
  • TL-3 or TL-3S, stylus DTL-3 or DTL-3S, bonded Stereohedron tip, half-inch mount close equivalent cartridge XV-15/757S (see LPGear for a Vivid Line replacement of the DTL-3S stylus), Stanton equivalent p-mount L737S (replacement stylus Stanton D73S)
  • TL-4 Super, stylus DTL-4 or DTL-4S, nude Stereohedron, half-inch mount equivalent cartridge XV-15/1800S, Stanton equivalent p-mount L747S (replacement stylus Stanton D74S)
So there are five different Pickering stylus alternatives of different performance and four different Stanton styli, depending on how much you want to spend, or which aftermarket alternatives are offered by your particular vendor. LPGear/LPTunes have close aftermarket replacements for the DLC, DTL-1E, DTL-2E and DTL-3S styli, and probably also the Stanton versions.

Having said that, you could upgrade the stylus of your ‘LPGear’ cartridge, which is made by Audio-Technica. Look up the ATN3472VL (Vivid Line) and ATN3472SA (Shibata) styli on LPGear, and that may be a cheaper option than buying a complete new cartridge, with similar performance between the 3472VL stylus on your current cartridge, and the LPGear Reference Series VL cartridge (the bodies are almost certainly exactly the same, and in fact, the top-end LP Gear T4P Reference Series VML uses the ATN3472ML stylus!). Or for an upgrade (at extra cost!) to the best tip available, try the superb ATN3472ML stylus. I actually have the genuine AT-made ATN3472ML on my AT-92ECD cartridge, and it elevates it a long way above the stock 0.3 x 0.7mil elliptical stylus.

The Vivid Line tip is an extended line contact tip exclusive to LPGear, meaning one with a much longer ‘footprint’ up the groove wall than an elliptical or conical stylus, and given similar tip quality (smoothness/polish) should wear records much less, and produce lower distortion, if it’s aligned properly. That’s because its pressure on the record is much lower for a given unit of area, because the pressure is spread over a much larger surface area. The Vivid Line is the same in radius dimensions to the original (best) Shibata Mk1 tip, that is, 6um x 75µm, or 0.24 x 3 mil, although that doesn’t mean that it’s the same shape as the Shibata 1.

Whether it is similar in polish to the Shibata 1, which is still made by the same company (Namiki Jewel) who developed it with JVC engineer Norio Shibata, after whom it’s named, is unknown (but probably doubtful, seeing it costs a lot less), and we also don’t know who manufactures the Vivid Line for LPGear, and haven’t seen any details on its exact shape, unlike many of the best patented tips. So it’s an unknown quality, although users generally seem to be happy with its sound, and it does cost less.

Note that I'm not making any recommendations - that's up to you to decide which one to buy. If it was me (and you were paying:)), I'd upgrade your current cartridge with one of the ATN3472VL, ATN3472SA or ATN3472ML styli, content in the knowledge that styli for the AT cartridges will be widely available around the world for some years to come.

Possible things to consider are that the Pickering cartridge recommended capacitance load of 275pF is probably much easier to meet for most amplifier and turntable output cable combinations than the very low 100-200pF recommendation for the Audio-Technica cartridges (including the LPGear-branded ones) for the flattest frequency response. If the AT cartridges are loaded with too much capacitance, they'll develop a shrill sound, because an electrical resonant peak is developed in the frequency response in the region between about 6 and 14kHz (depending on the capacitance).

However, to counter that, it's probably much easier to find styli for the AT cartridges, and AT are still manufacturing cartridges and styli, while Pickering isn't.

One thing stuck out here that I would seek clarification on, are you saying the ATN342VL stylus is an upgrade to the Carbon fidelity stock stylii?

This is the cartridge I am currently running, which does not sound bad at all.

https://www.lpgear.com/product/CFT4PSE.html
 
And if not, I also have an AT92E P-mount laying around, is that one compatible with the ATN3442VL Stylii?
 
Oh I also have a Shure M104E laying around. What's a good stylii upgrade for this p-mount? Bear in mind, this upgrade is for a Linear tracking table. Thanks.
 
Considering the following two P-mount upgrades for a Linear tracking turntable. First is pickering TLV 625E and the second is LPgear reference series VL.

Now I hear a lot of people go on non-stop about how great Pickering cartridges are. The one they're selling on LPgear comes with an adapter which I obviously wouldn't use. I suppose then I would just be using the silver part?

Anyway, it says it comes with a high polished ellptical which sounds neato. The LPgear reference series VL on the other hand has a vivid line diamond!

I am at a loss. Would like to hear from those who have experiences with both.

I am upgrading from LPgears carbon fidelity cartridge, which actually is not bad at all. Just wanna try other things out.

Listen to a ton of jazz, some rock, punk and percussive music too. Some strings also.

I'm all ears.

Major issue: The Stylus availability situation. Big issues are the 1-1.5 gram tracking force limitation with T4p mount and 6 grams mass. And many a generic stylus needs more tracking force than T4p mount standards allow. With Pickering, very critical for you. Shure's a better option in terms of Jico having styli close to genuine in terms of performance. Big other thing to know, Punk is not a good T4p mount music genre. Many of the independent Punk Rock labels aren't the best pressed.
 
Oh I also have a Shure M104E laying around. What's a good stylii upgrade for this p-mount? Bear in mind, this upgrade is for a Linear tracking table. Thanks.

Jico for your Shure and AT are best bets. The brush on the Shure is better than the Jico brush. And you're looking at HE or SAS territory to get close on the Shure. Not inexpensive.
 
Hmmm, specs for the Pickering would seem odd:

"- Tracking force: 2-5 grams" Hmmm - unlikely for a regular T4P cart.

"- Stylus tip: Elliptical .0004 x 0.0007 inch high-polish" Hmmm - for a D625E?

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

And…..

Major issue: The Stylus availability situation. Big issues are the 1-1.5 gram tracking force limitation with T4p mount and 6 grams mass. And many a generic stylus needs more tracking force than T4p mount standards allow. With Pickering, very critical for you. Shure's a better option in terms of Jico having styli close to genuine in terms of performance. Big other thing to know, Punk is not a good T4p mount music genre. Many of the independent Punk Rock labels aren't the best pressed.

The Shibata and Vivid Line styli are available for the Pickering and Stanton, same price as for the lean sound AT cartridge. That AT cart isn’t capable of the full and lush detailed sound of the Pickering/Stanton.



DE9C0514-D350-4BB5-BDC8-AD8EC53C741B.jpeg

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5275252F-EBC8-47C0-9F38-890C8B461C1E.jpeg
 
Major issue: The Stylus availability situation. Big issues are the 1-1.5 gram tracking force limitation with T4p mount and 6 grams mass. And many a generic stylus needs more tracking force than T4p mount standards allow. With Pickering, very critical for you. Shure's a better option in terms of Jico having styli close to genuine in terms of performance. Big other thing to know, Punk is not a good T4p mount music genre. Many of the independent Punk Rock labels aren't the best pressed.

On the punk issue, wouldn't that be true of any cartridge whether TP4 or standard?

On the Shure P-mount stylii replacements, what do you recommend for the cart I mentioned earlier? I actually want an upgrade if possible. Jico? Tell me more about their Styllii
 
Can someone please comment on the fact that I have a 92e P-mount laying around and what some decent or good stylii upgrades would be to these?
 
On the punk issue, wouldn't that be true of any cartridge whether TP4 or standard?

On the Shure P-mount stylii replacements, what do you recommend for the cart I mentioned earlier? I actually want an upgrade if possible. Jico? Tell me more about their Styllii

Many punk records are low budget/lower fidelity recordings. Done on a budget, to an aesthetic. I say this as someone who likes the better Punk Rock, a return to the roots of Rock & Roll.

Styli from Jico range from conical, to elliptical, to hyper elliptical, and SAS (super analog stylus aka MicroRidge) for Shures. You can choose depending on budget and tastes on all the Shure T4p mount models.

I love Pickering/Stanton Moving Iron greatly, but the stylus selection available limits them to 1/2" mount applications. As they tend to need more tracking force than allowable at present. (I use both makes in 1/2" mount applications myself daily). I own Pickering XV 15/400 and soon will have Stanton 680 EE. I own two Shure M 91 ED cartridges (one a Realistic version on my LAB 300, the other is an M93E on my Pioneer PL 518 direct drive). I use the Pickering on my Technics SL-1500 direct drive.
 
What about the tracking force compatibility issues?
They (the styli I showed above) track perfectly at 1.3 grams. So if your T4P table can handle that 1.3 grams, you’re set! I don’t know why folks have such a hard time finding good T4P styli for many p-mount carts, unless it’s a rare cart.
 
One thing stuck out here that I would seek clarification on, are you saying the ATN342VL stylus is an upgrade to the Carbon fidelity stock stylii?

This is the cartridge I am currently running, which does not sound bad at all.

https://www.lpgear.com/product/CFT4PSE.html

Yes, I worked out that that was the cartridge you had, and it's compatible with the ATN3472xx styli. (I assume you missed out the 7 in that question), as are the LPGear 'Reference Series' cartridges. Because LPGear don't show the inductance and resistance of those Reference Series cartridges, it's impossible to be absolutely sure, but it's a fair bet that many of those bodies which fit the ATN3472 styli are the same electrically - they certainly are physically, which is why many of the AT p-mount styli all fit.

And if not, I also have an AT92E P-mount laying around, is that one compatible with the ATN3442VL Stylii?

Yes, that's also compatible with ATN3472-series styli, and in fact, when you go through and look at the AT-92E stylus in LPGear, the trail through starts at the ATN3472SE stylus, and in the related products at the bottom of the page, where upgrade styli are shown, ends at the ATN3472VL stylus. It should end at the ATN3472ML stylus, but for some reason they leave that one off, although it is available as an upgrade from the ATN3472SE.
 
Yes, I worked out that that was the cartridge you had, and it's compatible with the ATN3472xx styli. (I assume you missed out the 7 in that question), as are the LPGear 'Reference Series' cartridges. Because LPGear don't show the inductance and resistance of those Reference Series cartridges, it's impossible to be absolutely sure, but it's a fair bet that many of those bodies which fit the ATN3472 styli are the same electrically - they certainly are physically, which is why many of the AT p-mount styli all fit.



Yes, that's also compatible with ATN3472-series styli, and in fact, when you go through and look at the AT-92E stylus in LPGear, the trail through starts at the ATN3472SE stylus, and in the related products at the bottom of the page, where upgrade styli are shown, ends at the ATN3472VL stylus. It should end at the ATN3472ML stylus, but for some reason they leave that one off, although it is available as an upgrade from the ATN3472SE.

Now, since I do need some guidance on the upgrade Stylii, I will ask you, is the ATN3472 Stylii a definitive upgrade to the stock stylii on the Carbon fidelity? For example this link below.

https://www.amazon.com/Replacement-...t=&hvlocphy=9031219&hvtargid=pla-911439520457
 
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