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Understanding Frequency Responce w/ Cartridge

tubemusic

tubemusic

AK Subscriber
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Question: Comparing these two, what is the most important specification? Frequency Response? How do I understand frequency response?
The lower the first number and higher the second number is best?

Cartridge A
- Tonearm mount: P-mount with 1/2 inch adapter
- Type: Moving magnet
- Output voltage @ 1kHz, 5cm/sec: 5mV
- Frequency response: 20Hz-18kHz
- Recommended load resistance: 47k ohms
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: 20dB
- Stylus type: 0.4 mil x 0.7 mil elliptical
- Cantilever: Aluminum alloy tube
- Tracking force: 0.75 - 1.5 g
- Recommended tracking force: 1.5 g
- Weight: 5.9 g (7.4 g with adapter)
- Accessories included: User guide, mounting hardware
- Stylus replacement:
- Warranty: 1 year

Cartridge B
- Type: Moving magnet
- Output voltage: 5mV
- Frequency response: 10Hz-50kHz
- Load impedance: 47k ohms
- Channel separation: 30dB
- Stylus type: Elliptical
- Stylus replacement: User replaceable
- Compliance: 20mm/N
- Tracking force: 1.0 - 2.0 g
- Recommended tracking force: 1.5 g
- Weight: 5.5 g
 
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Generally speaking, "Yes". The lower the first number, the higher the second number for frequency response. The assumption is, they were measured by similar methods.
 
tubemusic said:
Question: Comparing these two, what is the most important specification? Frequency Response? How do I understand frequency response?
The lower the first number and higher the second number is best?

Cartridge A
- Tonearm mount: P-mount with 1/2 inch adapter
- Type: Moving magnet
- Output voltage @ 1kHz, 5cm/sec: 5mV
- Frequency response: 20Hz-18kHz
- Recommended load resistance: 47k ohms
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: 20dB
- Stylus type: 0.4 mil x 0.7 mil elliptical
- Cantilever: Aluminum alloy tube
- Tracking force: 0.75 - 1.5 g
- Recommended tracking force: 1.5 g
- Weight: 5.9 g (7.4 g with adapter)
- Accessories included: User guide, mounting hardware
- Stylus replacement:
- Warranty: 1 year

Cartridge B
- Type: Moving magnet
- Output voltage: 5mV
- Frequency response: 10Hz-50kHz
- Load impedance: 47k ohms
- Channel separation: 30dB
- Stylus type: Elliptical
- Stylus replacement: User replaceable
- Compliance: 20mm/N
- Tracking force: 1.0 - 2.0 g
- Recommended tracking force: 1.5 g
- Weight: 5.5 g
Click to expand...



Even though the second the cartridge's frequency response may be rated at 10Hz-50kHz, it's almost irrelevant because no human can hear 10Hz. Likewise, no human can hear 50kHz. The cartridge may actually be able to go that low, and it may actually be able to go that high, but that would only be measurable on an oscilloscope. You don't hear really low frequencies as much as you "feel" them. And realistically, anything above 20kHz is not audible, but may come across as an "airy", "open", or "super-transparent" top end.

That aside, ALL specifications are important. There is no one single specification number that is more important than the others. The performance of a cartridge depends on the sum of all specifications, as well as the care in manufacture and quality control.
 
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From those specs I would choose the b cartridge due to the much better separation. The difference in FR is not enough to be of any consequence unless you are wanting to play quad encoded lps. But being that the b cartridge is better in both specs, I would assume it is a much better all around choice.
 
cart. specs.

What does it serve to have a cart. that goes very high when the preamp may limit the frequency range at both ends? RIAA will limit the high end in due course of it's curve. That is established by the 47K loading used on both carts.

Both look good to me but I would look at the one with a better channel separation which seems to be the biggest difference I can see except for the frequency response.
Channel separation is a very big point on high end carts.
The more the gooder.

Paul
 
I'd disqualify cartridge B simply because they do not give the stylus dimensions. Is it [0.0002, 0.0003, or 0.0004] x 0.0007. A dimension of 0.0002 has the potential to track inner grooves better but is also more critical for alignment. You also have to match the range of tracking force to what your turntable is capable of.
 
According to my Technics SL-QD33 manual , the original cartridge weights 5 gr. with 1.25 +/- .25. for stylus pressure adjustment range.

The two A & B are a little heavier, by almost a gram. Is that important, and if so, can I balance the difference in with the counter weigh. Ex. say A is 5.9 w/ 1.-2. gr tracking force. So I would use a little less tracking force?
 
fred soop said:
I'd disqualify cartridge B simply because they do not give the stylus dimensions. Is it [0.0002, 0.0003, or 0.0004] x 0.0007. A dimension of 0.0002 has the potential to track inner grooves better but is also more critical for alignment. You also have to match the range of tracking force to what your turntable is capable of.
Click to expand...

NICE info Fred. This is what I'm looking for. Knowledge. Yeah, the second doesn't give that information.
 
Excuse me, but how is Fred's response any better than the others?

Yes, cartridge B doesn't provide specific stylus specs, but both A and B are elliptical, so they're going to be fairly similar. Cartridge A doesn't provide compliance information, so are you going to discount cartridge A because of that?

Regarding alignment.....this is critical regardless of the type of stylus.

Another important factor is the effective mass of the tonearm in relation to the effective mass of the cartridge. You want to make sure whatever cartridge you use is a good match for the tonearm. If for example the tonearm is low mass, you don't want to use a big heavy low-compliance cartridge.

I also happen to know that your SL-QD33 is a table with a P-mount tonearm (I know because I used to own one of these myself), and unless cartridge B is a P-mount cartridge, you can't use it on your table. We know cartridge A is a P-mount because you provided that information.

NB: And Balifly makes an excellent point. Even though a cartridge may be a P-mount, in order to use it on a standard P-mount arm, the cartridge must be T4P.
 
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tubemusic said:
Question: Comparing these two, what is the most important specification? Frequency Response? How do I understand frequency response?
The lower the first number and higher the second number is best?

Cartridge A
- Tonearm mount: P-mount with 1/2 inch adapter
- Type: Moving magnet
- Output voltage @ 1kHz, 5cm/sec: 5mV
- Frequency response: 20Hz-18kHz
- Recommended load resistance: 47k ohms
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: 20dB
- Stylus type: 0.4 mil x 0.7 mil elliptical
- Cantilever: Aluminum alloy tube
- Tracking force: 0.75 - 1.5 g
- Recommended tracking force: 1.5 g
- Weight: 5.9 g (7.4 g with adapter)
- Accessories included: User guide, mounting hardware
- Stylus replacement:
- Warranty: 1 year

Cartridge B
- Type: Moving magnet
- Output voltage: 5mV
- Frequency response: 10Hz-50kHz
- Load impedance: 47k ohms
- Channel separation: 30dB
- Stylus type: Elliptical
- Stylus replacement: User replaceable
- Compliance: 20mm/N
- Tracking force: 1.0 - 2.0 g
- Recommended tracking force: 1.5 g
- Weight: 5.5 g
Click to expand...

The most important 'spec'??

Your ears.

You only have to please you. Plug 'em both in, and whatever sounds better - that's the one to use!
 
Frequency response specs are essentially meaningless without the range (+/- X db).

Example:

Cartridge A: 20Hz - 18 kHz +/-0.5 dB
Cartridge B: 10Hz - 50 kHz +/- 3dB


Both of these specs could actually be for the exact same cartridge!! All cartridges (even big $$ LOMCs) experience a roll off of high frequencies at some point way below 50 kHz, so to see a +/- 3dB variance for Cartridge B, would be normal (even very good). Problem is, the +/- 3 dB variance could be within the 20Hz - 18 kHz band also, which would be very bad indeed. Cartridge A with a +/- 0.5 dB range over the 20Hz - 18 kHz audio band tells us a whole lot more about the actual sound (or at least the linearity) of the cartridge in our audio systems.

Best possible case is if the cartridge is provided with a Frequency Response graph (and also a Phase graph) so that it is easy to see where in the audio band the non-linearity occurs.

Agree that a 10dB increase in separation would indicate a superior performing cartridge, assuming both specs are at the same frequency and all other specs being equal. Cartridge B in your example does not specify the frequency at which the 30dB separation is achieved.

Bottom line: specs are used by manufacturers much like statistics are used by politicians. They can mean anything (or nothing) without the proper qualifications.

Dave
 
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Dave beat me to it. Without a +/- range, those numbers are worthless. IMO it makes little sense to go to the trouble of making an RIAA stage that's accurate to a quarter dB or better, and then plug in a cartridge with a goofy response. If you can hear anything, you can certainly hear big and even not so big response errors. I recently tested the response of several MM cartridges and and was surprised at how far from flat they were in the middle of the audible range. The frequency response tilt (more than a couple dB) accounted for the company's "house sound" and was consistent with reports of their sonic quality on the 'net. As a reality check, I also did my long time favorite, an Ortofon OM30 that's my daily user. Flat as a board over most of the audible range.
 
Specs like statistics can tell a story if you know their context and details around them.

But they can also be used by marketing types intentionally leaving out the context in the hope that the prospective purchaser will make assumptions(incorrect ones!) in their favour.

A cartridge that achieves 50Hz to 15kHz within +/-0.5db is a superb top end cartridge.

One that achieves 20Hz to 20kHz within +/- 3db is a good midrange cartridge

Many bottom end cartridges struggle to achieve 20-20kHz within +/-6db or even +/-10db! but some of these same carts do well within the 50-15kHz area - which is why some budget cartridges are bargains, and others are best avoided. (unless you like the peaks and troughs of their particular "voicing")

There are very very few cartridges that can achieve 20-50kHz within anything reasonable (ie +/-3db or less) - the Dynavector Karat family are one of the few that come to mind

The wider a cartridges true bandwidth (ie what frequency does it get up to before dropping out of the +/-3db range), the lighter the effective mass of that stylus and the better it will be in terms of tracking, dynamics, etc...

Even if the cartridge is capable of say 30kHz within +/-3db, the manufacturer may choose to quote that it goes up to 20kHz within +/-1db (like the legendary Shure V15VMR)

Seperation is another spec that one has to approach carefully - as the frequency rises it becomes more and more difficult to maintain seperation within a cartridge/stylus.

Most manufacturers quite seperation at 1kHz - and some designs do this better than others (the Stanton and Pickering designs are among the best), but very few will quote seperation at 10kHz or 15kHz where it is substantially degraded.
If the manufacturer quotes seperation at a higher frequency you can be sure that it is something they are boasting about!

One might think that seperation is the be all and end all - but then you look at an exceptional top end cartridge design like the Dynavector Karat - with true 50kHz capability, exceptional dynamics, fantastic tracking ability, and a seperation that is relatively ordinary....

One does need to consider psycho acoustics, and how much seperation is necessary to maintain the psychological illusion that is stereo sound (soundstaging, imaging, etc...). I believe that circa 20db is all that is required with some saying that 15db is ample.

During the golden age of vinyl, many reviews were quite technical, and included a range of technical measurements that tested and verified (or debunked) the quoted manufacturer specs.

Unfortunately, today it is far more fashionable to wax lyrical, and poetically describe the cartridge being reviewed.... to the point that one could almost swap cartridge / manufacturer names into a range of reviews without ever noticing.... easily done given that no measurements are involved, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder....

What specs would I look for if I could insist on something meaningful:

1) Frequency response within +/- 1db, preferably displayed as a plot rather than a numeric.
2) Effective stylus mass in mg
3) Seperation - as a frequency response plot
4) Harmonic distortion - as a frequency response plot

Then there are the specs that tell you how to match it up within the system:

Output level
Compliance (measured at 10Hz dynamic)
Loading requirements (both capacitive and resistive)

There are a few others, but I think these are the key ones

bye for now

David
 
iLUVanalog said:
Excuse me, but how is Fred's response any better than the others?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I should have stated..."Thank you guys...this is what I'm looking for."
I guess I had already thanked the comments before Fred's info in my mind, sorry I didn't post my gratitude. Because I'm gratiful for all the information you guys are teaching me. I didn't mean to offend you iLUVanalog or anybody else.

iLUVanalog said:
NB: And Balifly makes an excellent point. Even though a cartridge may be a P-mount, in order to use it on a standard P-mount arm, the cartridge must be T4P.
Click to expand...

Yes, both are T4P. Compliance is what I'm hoping to find when buying an upgrade. I don't want to screw up my albums nor effect the sound quality by purchasing the wrong cart.
 
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