At what precentage/price point do AK members feel it is better to move up to a higher level turntable with better performance and features than spending money to upgrade a lower level turntable? Looking at the cost of upgrade options for some turntables the total cost can easly amount to more than the cost of a much better turntable that does not require upgrades.
Upgrade or Move UP
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Thats really too vague of a question to give an accurate answer to. Its really going to depend on what you have for equipment to start with, how much you have to spend, and what sort of results are you after. It also depends if you like to tinker. I love tinkering. I'd probably give up something thats perfect out of the box for something that I can fiddle with for a while in order to get the results I want.
voltcontrol
Fizheuer Zieheuer
It is also very important about which tables you are talking in regards of upgrading. some are worth it, some not. Which apple are you comparing to which pear?
I read a couple of stories from guys that dismissed their heavily modded VPI's in favour of (massively modded) heavy plinth Lenco L75's. Hard to grasp for me but very interesting since I'm gonna start modding my own Lenco's (an L58 to practice first) next year.
From what i've been reading and know about turntables the heavy platter/plinth Lenco route (DIY mods) and modded SL12xx (upgrade mods) route are very interesting..
SL1210
(This used to be a) Lenco L75
Ps VPI's aren't too shabby by themselves. (From what I've read, haven't heard one yet
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Arkay
Lunatic Member
It is also very important about which tables you are talking in regards of upgrading. some are worth it, some not. Which apple are you comparing to which pear?
I read a couple of stories from guys that dismissed their heavily modded VPI's in favour of (massively modded) heavy plinth Lenco L75's. Hard to grasp for me but very interesting since I'm gonna start modding my own Lenco's (an L58 to practice first) next year.
From what i've been reading and know about turntables the heavy platter/plinth Lenco route (DIY mods) and modded SL12xx (upgrade mods) route are very interesting..
SL1210
(This used to be a) Lenco L75
Ps VPI's aren't too shabby by themselves. (From what I've read, haven't heard one yet
You raise some interesting and valid points.
A heavy-platter Lenco can still be found today for a reasonable price. Get a Pete's Top Plate, and a massive CNC-cut slate plinth, perhaps a titanium idler wheel and a nice tonearm, and you'll have a "killer" quality TT... but at a price. Still worth it, in sonic terms and in ratio to what you spend. If you don't want to spend that much, you can use the original top plate and a laminated plywood (CLD) plinth, keep the original (metal) idler wheel, and do all the work yourself, and get almost as good a sound for a lot less money. Definitely one of the bargain routes to high quality, and probably well worth it.
Kabusa makes all kinds of optional upgrades for the Technics 1200 series TTs. They make it a lot better, but they also add up in cost. I'd say it's a toin-coss whether you get your money's worth, if you go whole hog on one of these. If you go to re-sell it, you may not recoup the total expenditure.
Similarly, Linn LP-12s have a long list of "recommended upgrades." Each one enhances the sound, and upgrading turns a decent TT into a very fine one...but is it worth it? Maybe, maybe not; it depends in part on what you are looking for sonically, how you value your money, etc... At least, with the LP-12, there is a well-established resale market, and you can make a reasonable calculation and decide for yourself. And you are putting your money into a TT that people are willing to pay a fair amount for, so perhaps the upgrades are worthwhile.
I bought a GT-2000 a little less than two years ago. Since then, I've put money into a better (uncracked) dust cover, original manual, a new tonearm with the auto arm-lift, a separate power supply, better underpinnings... and I'm still looking for more upgrades, ready to spend money on whatever original accessories may cross my path. I don't worry much about the cost, for two reasons: (1) I got the TT originally for a low enough price (compared to market value) that even after spending more, I'm not at risk of losing money, and (2) this TT is good enough to justify significant expenditure. I don't expect to ever re-sell this TT (unless, perhaps, it is to upgrade to the GT-2000X), but if I decide to, there is a ready market for it. It's hard to imagine making this TT any better than it already is, but I know it is possible, so I'll do it if I can.
Would I spend money on costly upgrades like a massive plinth or costly mat, etc... for a Garrard Zero 100? No, because no matter what I did to it, there is a fairly low limit on what anyone would buy it for. If I were deeply enamored with that TT, and wanted to keep it for my lifetime (as I feel about the GT-2000, even if I later get an even better TT), than maybe I wouldn't mind, but it's hardly worth it economically --or sonically!
There is no simple answer to the original question; the most accurate answer can only be given on a case-by-case basis.
I think you need to consider:
1. What you paid for the TT.
2. The cost of the upgrades.
3. Your "emotional attachment" to, or preference for, the particular TT.
4.How you would feel about the alternatives available.
5. The resale value of your TT.
6. The sonic quality of your TT before the upgrades.
7. The sonic quality of your TT after the upgrades.
8. The quality of alternatives at the price level before your upgrades, and what they would be like after any comparable upgrades.
9. The quality of of alternatives at the price level after your upgrades.
10. How the alternatives mentioned would fit into your existing system.
11. How the alternatives mentioned would fit into your future sytem plans.
BrocLuno
Lunatic Member
Well ...
To me, this question is so complex, it's not even funny
Starting at the beginning - an audio systems performance is driven about 90% by the transducers and the room (think cartridge/stylus and speakers/placement - headphones). BUT - the cartridge/stylus has to have a mechanical support system. That's where the TT comes in. AND, an electronic support system. That's where the phono section comes in.
In a perfect world, TT's would be transparent and interchangeable. But they are not. Transports, platters, mats, arm boards, arms, headsells, cartridge mounting bolts, wire, proximity to other components, and the phono section/amp all get to make a contribution. That's where synergy comes from.
That's also an equation with a LOT of variables. I still believe that the cartridge and stylus comes first. But I also am acutely aware of TT limitations. There is little comparison of a Crosely and a Yamaha GT2000 - even with the same cartridge. But where do we draw the price/performance plot point?
This thread can go in all sorts of directions, but I'd be leaning toward known performance pairs in systems of similar quality to yours and in rooms about the same acoustic performance. Get too far away from that, and the advice may be meaningless
I can say this for sure - if your phono section does not support variable loading for your cartridge - you are not even close to knowing what's in there. You might start there :scratch2:
To me, this question is so complex, it's not even funny
Starting at the beginning - an audio systems performance is driven about 90% by the transducers and the room (think cartridge/stylus and speakers/placement - headphones). BUT - the cartridge/stylus has to have a mechanical support system. That's where the TT comes in. AND, an electronic support system. That's where the phono section comes in.
In a perfect world, TT's would be transparent and interchangeable. But they are not. Transports, platters, mats, arm boards, arms, headsells, cartridge mounting bolts, wire, proximity to other components, and the phono section/amp all get to make a contribution. That's where synergy comes from.
That's also an equation with a LOT of variables. I still believe that the cartridge and stylus comes first. But I also am acutely aware of TT limitations. There is little comparison of a Crosely and a Yamaha GT2000 - even with the same cartridge. But where do we draw the price/performance plot point?
This thread can go in all sorts of directions, but I'd be leaning toward known performance pairs in systems of similar quality to yours and in rooms about the same acoustic performance. Get too far away from that, and the advice may be meaningless
I can say this for sure - if your phono section does not support variable loading for your cartridge - you are not even close to knowing what's in there. You might start there :scratch2:
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thedelihaus
Nocturnal transmissions
Rich,
Great topic, but so hard to answer.
By the time I finish modding my Technics SP25, I could have bought a Yamaha GT2000.
Now, the GT2000 is one hell of a table, but if something goes wrong with it, it could cost me lots of cash and time to chase down parts to repair it. Plenty of these in Japan, but not here stateside.
I have gone the SP25 route because I have a source for all the major parts for it. And modding it should increase the performance quite a bit. The arms I have are better than the GT2000 arm, and I can compensate for the lighter platter by adding copper mats or SAEC gunmetal mats, and the power supply can be upgraded from a choice now of four different manufacturers.
My concern was with the more complex approach of a direct drive deck that I didn't want to fork out lots of cash only to be told when a part failed that it was NLA and I now owned a pricey doorstop.
If I were to run a belt drive deck, things may be a bit different. I dunno. A stock VPI classic is impressive, and even can be further upgraded, but I often think of what a tricked-out Empire could be capable of, not to mention how nice it could look.
A deck like that offers the owner plenty of options too- aftermarket motors, arms, etc.
There are other tables in the new, or slightly used category that are really nice- the Marantz TT-15S1 Turntable used at around $1200, the Rega P3/24 and P3TT PSU external power supply at around $1450, etc.
But at that cash layout, once again we are at the crossroads- would a used Yamaha GT2000 at least compete, if not out-perform it? What about a tricked out custom Lenco or Empire, or hot-rodded Technics SL1200MK2?
And are you getting that much more performance out of a deck priced at this pricepoint than one $500 cheaper?
What if you went $500 more?
I think it's easy to quantify a good turntable at certain pricepoints- The Technics SL1200MK2 at $600/$700 current price, the Marantz TT-15S1 Turntable mildly used at around $1200, the Rega P3/24 and P3TT PSU external power supply at around $1450, a Yamaha GT2000 shipped for $1600, a VPI Classic at $2500.
The tougher calls are the modded decks- a full tilt Technics SP1200MK2 with an SME 309/IV/V arm and external PSU at $2000- is it capable of $2000 sound (two glowing reports say yes) and is it re-sellable at that price (probably not- the market is small in this regard).
A tricked out Empire worth $1000? I'd say easily yes, but not every one would agree. Still, I bet it would out-perform decks close to twice the price. But who wants to believe a dinosaur like an Empire could compete (even if it can)?
So many factors- do you want a unique table? Do you like to modify things? Are you skilled to do so? Are you concerned about resale value? Do you have the time to futz around with such things? Are you a gambling man?
Great topic, but so hard to answer.
By the time I finish modding my Technics SP25, I could have bought a Yamaha GT2000.
Now, the GT2000 is one hell of a table, but if something goes wrong with it, it could cost me lots of cash and time to chase down parts to repair it. Plenty of these in Japan, but not here stateside.
I have gone the SP25 route because I have a source for all the major parts for it. And modding it should increase the performance quite a bit. The arms I have are better than the GT2000 arm, and I can compensate for the lighter platter by adding copper mats or SAEC gunmetal mats, and the power supply can be upgraded from a choice now of four different manufacturers.
My concern was with the more complex approach of a direct drive deck that I didn't want to fork out lots of cash only to be told when a part failed that it was NLA and I now owned a pricey doorstop.
If I were to run a belt drive deck, things may be a bit different. I dunno. A stock VPI classic is impressive, and even can be further upgraded, but I often think of what a tricked-out Empire could be capable of, not to mention how nice it could look.
A deck like that offers the owner plenty of options too- aftermarket motors, arms, etc.
There are other tables in the new, or slightly used category that are really nice- the Marantz TT-15S1 Turntable used at around $1200, the Rega P3/24 and P3TT PSU external power supply at around $1450, etc.
But at that cash layout, once again we are at the crossroads- would a used Yamaha GT2000 at least compete, if not out-perform it? What about a tricked out custom Lenco or Empire, or hot-rodded Technics SL1200MK2?
And are you getting that much more performance out of a deck priced at this pricepoint than one $500 cheaper?
What if you went $500 more?
I think it's easy to quantify a good turntable at certain pricepoints- The Technics SL1200MK2 at $600/$700 current price, the Marantz TT-15S1 Turntable mildly used at around $1200, the Rega P3/24 and P3TT PSU external power supply at around $1450, a Yamaha GT2000 shipped for $1600, a VPI Classic at $2500.
The tougher calls are the modded decks- a full tilt Technics SP1200MK2 with an SME 309/IV/V arm and external PSU at $2000- is it capable of $2000 sound (two glowing reports say yes) and is it re-sellable at that price (probably not- the market is small in this regard).
A tricked out Empire worth $1000? I'd say easily yes, but not every one would agree. Still, I bet it would out-perform decks close to twice the price. But who wants to believe a dinosaur like an Empire could compete (even if it can)?
So many factors- do you want a unique table? Do you like to modify things? Are you skilled to do so? Are you concerned about resale value? Do you have the time to futz around with such things? Are you a gambling man?
BrocLuno
Lunatic Member
Dinosaur - yes 
There are few vintage belt drives that I would want to own. Been there, done that. I'm mostly a DD guy for all sorts of reasons. But there are two, I'd seriously consider - tricked out Empire is at the top of the list. Yamaha YP is the other because I think I can build a poor mans GT on that chassis (sound wise). It might be a fantasy (?), but who knows :scratch2:
If you are into experimenting - that's where the surprises come from. Just like my "brought back from the dead" Infinity RS3000's with non stock parts including woofers - those speakers still set the benchmark in my house and they are amazing enough (after years of listening) that I still stop what I'm doing to just listen (they are in a bedroom that I transit and my wife often has something on that system). Point is sometimes working out the issues does yield surprisingly good results
There are few vintage belt drives that I would want to own. Been there, done that. I'm mostly a DD guy for all sorts of reasons. But there are two, I'd seriously consider - tricked out Empire is at the top of the list. Yamaha YP is the other because I think I can build a poor mans GT on that chassis (sound wise). It might be a fantasy (?), but who knows :scratch2:
If you are into experimenting - that's where the surprises come from. Just like my "brought back from the dead" Infinity RS3000's with non stock parts including woofers - those speakers still set the benchmark in my house and they are amazing enough (after years of listening) that I still stop what I'm doing to just listen (they are in a bedroom that I transit and my wife often has something on that system). Point is sometimes working out the issues does yield surprisingly good results
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KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Like The Delihaus, I use the SP-25 as daily fare. I used to own the SL-1200 Mk II as my main table. I was getting ready to mod mine and got the opportunity to upgrade the table to an easier one to modify. And stock with my Audio-Technica ATP-16T, it's such a nice musically engaging performer I feel little to no need for tweaking. Mainly a better mat is all I really feel is needed.