Upgrade to a phono preamp or cartridge

[Dima R.]

Trying to get the sound update
What I have:
- MusicHall mm 1.5
- Dennon AVR-S760H receiver with the phono stage, that I am using
- Quite Nice large B&W old speakers

Cambridge Audio Alva Solo or​

Schiit Mani 2 Phono Preamp f​

Both are a little above my budget but .. if it is a worthy update, I could stretch ...

For the Cartridge I am looking at the AT-VM95 EN ..
But, I can only do one or the other, so ... given I have a Phono stage in the Denon receiver ..
what would be a better option
- To upgrade the pre-amp
- To upgrade the cartridge ?

 

[malden]

well, I am pretty sure this is not what you want to hear but I would sell the receiver and get a two channel stereo integrated amplifier with on board phono stage

what cartridge do you have now?

 

[Dima R.]

well, I am pretty sure this is not what you want to hear but I would sell the receiver and get a two channel stereo integrated amplifier with on board phono stage

what cartridge do you have now?

MusicHall mm 1.5 has a rebadged Audio-Technica AT 3600 - this is what I have now.

Selling the receiver is not really an option, as I bought it new, and it is not something that I can sell for a price to justify the expense differences

 

[mh1947]

The Vessel A3SE cartridge is said to be a great match for that table. I think LP Gear promotes the 1.5 with that cartridge as a big upgrade over the cartridge that comes with the table.

 

[knotscott]

I'd get the cartridge for now. The VM95EN is a nice cart, great value, and has upgrade opportunities down the road when the rest of the system comes up to snuff. You can add a phono (or amp) later.

 

[MisterDK]

Trying to get the sound update
What I have:
- MusicHall mm 1.5
- Dennon AVR-S760H receiver with the phono stage, that I am using
- Quite Nice large B&W old speakers

Cambridge Audio Alva Solo or​

Schiit Mani 2 Phono Preamp f​

Both are a little above my budget but .. if it is a worthy update, I could stretch ...

For the Cartridge I am looking at the AT-VM95 EN ..
But, I can only do one or the other, so ... given I have a Phono stage in the Denon receiver ..
what would be a better option
- To upgrade the pre-amp
- To upgrade the cartridge ?

Looking at the options you’re considering, I would upgrade the cartridge first. When you’re ready and have the funds, then think about the phono preamp. I had a couple of the earlier Schiit Mani preamps and while they weren’t horrible, they weren’t great, either. The newer Mani 2 is supposed to be a big improvement over the original, with less background noise and more settings to play with..

 

[Dima R.]

The Vessel A3SE cartridge is said to be a great match for that table. I think LP Gear promotes the 1.5 with that cartridge as a big upgrade over the cartridge that comes with the table.

I am a little currious / worried if this is a rebranded version of a cartridge that would have been cheaper if bought off original brand ?

 

[malden]

MusicHall mm 1.5 has a rebadged Audio-Technica AT 3600 - this is what I have now.

then yes, a new and better cartridge would be a good move

Selling the receiver is not really an option, as I bought it new, and it is not something that I can sell for a price to justify the expense differences

I understand but that AVR is potentially a bottle-neck in terms of sound quality.

 

[mh1947]

I am a little currious / worried if this is a rebranded version of a cartridge that would have been cheaper if bought off original brand ?

Here is a quote about Vessel cartridges from a Positive Feedback review of one of their more expensive models....

"The Vessel series of cartridges are sourced from Japan, and built by an established OEM cartridge manufacturer. This line is a proprietary design developed for LP Gear, and is not a rebadged offering found in another manufacturer's catalog."

LP Gear - The Vessel A3SM Cartridge - Positive Feedback

In 1995 the world of analog playback was a dark place, and hobbyists had very few places to find the parts and supplies needed to keep their turntables functioning properly. During this time Rome Castellanes made the decision to open LP Gear, and provide turntable owners with a high quality...

positive-feedback.com

I have no idea how it compares with the AT VM95EN.

 

[miles2002]

I have another suggestion look into a MC cartridge, Denon's built-in phono is actually quite good with a moving coil. I don't know for sure on your model but my pma900 sounds just as good as my hagerman bugle on MC, but on MM the bugle smokes the built-in.

 

[WizardWG4]

I'm a fan of the AT3600 and I think you should try and get the most out of that cartridge before you spend money on a new one.

$11 Chinese AT3600L Thread Mk. II - Champagne sound on a Beer budget!

Anyone put a nude elliptical on this cheapo cart? If so, which one?

audiokarma.org

The issue with built in phono stages in AVRs is they have far too much input capacitance (sometimes 470pf or more) to suppress RFI.

"Some units sold currently by Japanese makers conform all “worldwide models” to meet (in our opinion, misguided) EU standards for Radio Frequency Interference tolerance. These manufacturers achieve this in the context of their simple circuitry by using a tremendously-oversized input capacitance as part of an overzealous input RFI network - using input caps up to 1000pF!!! While such a design may not ‘complain’ when you put your computer router right next to your turntable, this “protection” will destroy any semblance of good audio quality by producing a giant midrange peak with most cartridges in real world use - yet typical bench frequency response testing will look OK."
Source: https://www.darlingtonlabs.com/beginners-page

The AT3600 as well as other Audio Technica mm's perform best (flattest frequency response) loaded under 200pf. AT recommends 100-200pf. To figure out the total load seen by the cartridge you need to also include the capacitance of your tonearm wires and rca cables which typically total 150-200pf.

My suggestion would be to find an external phono stage within your budget with the lowest input capacitance (preferably zero). Out of the two you listed above I would go with the Mani since you can select 47pf. The Cambridge is fixed at 100pf.

Here's a frequency plot of the AT3600 loaded at 147pf. The high frequency peaking will be much more pronounced loaded with a higher capacitance.

 

[MisterDK]

@Dima R. - I recommend and hope, that instead of putting a better stylus on what’s likely the very cheapest cartridge body that AT has made in years, that you’ll want to stick with your original plan to upgrade either cartridge or phono preamp… If you mess with the bottom of the line, no matter how good some people think they can be, you won’t be as happy..

At least the AT VM95 body has factory optional stylus upgrades all the way to a Shibata or Micro-Line diamond cut. The “EN” nude elliptical you asked about in your first post above, is probably a nice sounding choice. BTW - I occasionally use an old AT-13EA cartridge with an original, nude elliptical and it really does sound quite good. I’ll keep using my 13EA for years (if I’m still around), ‘cause I have a couple more NOS, original AT styli for it...

So, unless you’re willing to wait and save for a better cartridge than the VM95 series, just get the one you were thinking about..

 

[lini]

(...) For the Cartridge I am looking at the AT-VM95 EN .. (...)

I'd rather suggest to skip the AT-VM95EN and directly go for the AT-VM95ML - as the -EN isn't all that much cheaper, and with the -ML you get a much more sophisticated, way sharper tip with lower wear. But a Mani 2 later on also wouldn't be a bad idea.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[jrtrent]

Trying to get the sound update
What I have:
- MusicHall mm 1.5
- Dennon AVR-S760H receiver with the phono stage, that I am using
- Quite Nice large B&W old speakers

Cambridge Audio Alva Solo or​

Schiit Mani 2 Phono Preamp f​

Both are a little above my budget but .. if it is a worthy update, I could stretch ...

For the Cartridge I am looking at the AT-VM95 EN ..
But, I can only do one or the other, so ... given I have a Phono stage in the Denon receiver ..
what would be a better option
- To upgrade the pre-amp
- To upgrade the cartridge ?

I'm curious to know if you compared the phono stage built into the MMF-1.5 to the one in your Denon receiver. If so, was there a significant difference?

Like WizardWG4, I am also a fan of the AT3600 family of cartridges, and have gotten great pleasure from my records with the CN5625AL, the AT91R, and, currently, the AT3600L. Mh1947 mentioned the Vessel A3SE as a cartridge one reviewer found to be a good match to the MMF-1.5; another reviewer was impressed by the Sumiko Black Pearl on that turntable, a cartridge that proved to be my favorite on a Denon DP-300F. I had an Audio Technica turntable that came with an AT-VM95E (the bonded version), but a Sumiko Oyster (the $79 conical model) gave me more involving sound. Anyway, just mentioning some other cartridge possibilities.

I also agree with WizardWG4 that if your current setup is lacking with both the built-in phono stage on the turntable and the one in the receiver, the Schiit Mani 2 could be a good choice with its greater flexibility in setup options. Another advantage is that the Schiit unit has a 15-day return window (albeit with a 15% restocking fee) to see if a different phono stage will really make a significant difference in the sound you get. Since you're not sure whether to buy a phono stage or a cartridge, it could make sense to try out a returnable phono stage first.

 

[likebike23]

I think a question that needs to be answered is what about your current setup's sound is not to your liking? What type of sound are you aiming for? Do you value mellow, easy to listen to vinyl sound? Are you looking for more crisp, detail out of your vinyl?

When my brother was starting out he wanted a new cartridge and most roads led to the AT-VM95EN. He bought it and an Art DJ pre and was not happy with it. Even after an extended break in period he thought it was too bright. He is after a more mellow, round sound, if that makes any sense to you. I recommended he try the AT3600L and he is very satisfied with it.

I am probably going to take some flack for this, but my opinion is that in most cases the higher you go up the ladder the more the treble will be enhanced. If you aren't a treble lover beware.

 

[Dima R.]

I'm curious to know if you compared the phono stage built into the MMF-1.5 to the one in your Denon receiver. If so, was there a significant difference?

Like WizardWG4, I am also a fan of the AT3600 family of cartridges, and have gotten great pleasure from my records with the CN5625AL, the AT91R, and, currently, the AT3600L. Mh1947 mentioned the Vessel A3SE as a cartridge one reviewer found to be a good match to the MMF-1.5; another reviewer was impressed by the Sumiko Black Pearl on that turntable, a cartridge that proved to be my favorite on a Denon DP-300F. I had an Audio Technica turntable that came with an AT-VM95E (the bonded version), but a Sumiko Oyster (the $79 conical model) gave me more involving sound. Anyway, just mentioning some other cartridge possibilities.

I also agree with WizardWG4 that if your current setup is lacking with both the built-in phono stage on the turntable and the one in the receiver, the Schiit Mani 2 could be a good choice with its greater flexibility in setup options. Another advantage is that the Schiit unit has a 15-day return window (albeit with a 15% restocking fee) to see if a different phono stage will really make a significant difference in the sound you get. Since you're not sure whether to buy a phono stage or a cartridge, it could make sense to try out a returnable phono stage first.

I compared them... I like the Dennon's phono better.. but, i ca't tell if it is for the what it actually is, or is that their line inputs are not catching all that analog smootheness.
So, just can't solely blame the mmf indtegrated one.

 

[Dima R.]

I think a question that needs to be answered is what about your current setup's sound is not to your liking? What type of sound are you aiming for? Do you value mellow, easy to listen to vinyl sound? Are you looking for more crisp, detail out of your vinyl?

When my brother was starting out he wanted a new cartridge and most roads led to the AT-VM95EN. He bought it and an Art DJ pre and was not happy with it. Even after an extended break in period he thought it was too bright. He is after a more mellow, round sound, if that makes any sense to you. I recommended he try the AT3600L and he is very satisfied with it.

I am probably going to take some flack for this, but my opinion is that in most cases the higher you go up the ladder the more the treble will be enhanced. If you aren't a treble lover beware.

thanks ..i am not planning to throw out the at3600...

 

[Dima R.]

I think a question that needs to be answered is what about your current setup's sound is not to your liking? What type of sound are you aiming for? Do you value mellow, easy to listen to vinyl sound? Are you looking for more crisp, detail out of your vinyl?

When my brother was starting out he wanted a new cartridge and most roads led to the AT-VM95EN. He bought it and an Art DJ pre and was not happy with it. Even after an extended break in period he thought it was too bright. He is after a more mellow, round sound, if that makes any sense to you. I recommended he try the AT3600L and he is very satisfied with it.

I am probably going to take some flack for this, but my opinion is that in most cases the higher you go up the ladder the more the treble will be enhanced. If you aren't a treble lover beware.

I am looking for somewhat more dynamic sound.. would like some more distinguished low ends

 

[malden]

I am looking for somewhat more dynamic sound.. would like some more distinguished low ends

Amp & preamp play a huge role in dynamics........ like I said before, they can also be a bottleneck

 

[likebike23]

I was just going to say what Malden is getting at. Are your other sources more dynamic compared to your turntable? Maybe a preamp with more gain would work. The Art DJ is cheap enough to try vs revamping your whole setup.