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Upgrading ma5300

C

chickenman10

New Member
I’m looking to upgrade my integrated into separates and was wondering if anyone had some advice. Would I get more bang for my buck getting a preamp and using the 5300 as my power amp or the other way around? I’m hoping to get a c22 and a larger power amp (maybe an MC 312) but I’ll have to live with just one for a while before I’ll be able to get the other piece. I’m leaning towards getting the C22 first, thinking it’ll be the most noticeable improvement. I’m currently running it into B&W cm9s
 
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I had the MA5200, the predecessor to the MA5300. I bought it and paired it with Focal 1008BE speakers at the time. The sound was very thin to my ears compared to my Cambridge Audio CXA80 that I had. As a test, I used the CXA80 as my preamplifier and the MA5200 as my power amplifier, and the sound, to my ears had improved quite a bit. Also, on the McIntosh integrated amplifiers, it has been recommended by some that you replace the factor jumpers that McIntosh provides. My MA5200 was bought used, and the jumpers were not present, so I bought the Audioquest short cable jumpers. To my ears, it didn't really add much improvement, if at all. Then again, I never tried or used the factory jumpers.

Today, I'm running an Audiolab 6000A as my DAC/pre-amp and a McIntosh MC352 amplifier. The sound? Stunning, even though I'm only using about 4 watts of power.
 
Yea I really dig the sound of my current set up but I agree if there’s a complaint to made it can be described as thin. I’m hoping a tube pre will roll it out and get me to where I want to go. That’s why I’m hoping upgrading the preamp section first would be the way to go, then down the road go for a little more power. Do you think it’ll help fill the sound out?
 
B&W speakers are notorious for having a more forward or thin house sound signature. Moving to a Mcintosh amp or integrated with autoformers and a tube preamp might calm things down a little, or a full tube/preamp setup might be your ticket. But my experience would tell me that it might be time to move to different speakers or add a decent subwoofer to help balance out the sound while making it sound fuller. There are tons of speaker and/or sub bass system options available that will probably provide an upgrade in sound quality while sticking with your MA5300. One of the best upgrades I've ever made was adding an REL subwoofer to my system. I'm not a bass fanatic, but it just made everything sound bigger, fuller, and better. It also saved a lot of money and time over continually swapping components and speakers.
 
If as you say you “really dig the sound of your current setup”, consider it “thin”, it might be good to identify what it is that you’re hoping to hear more of.

Some here say you might need different speakers, which is completely possible. Another being perhaps different equipment feeding the speakers might fatten it up, also possible.

I agree with the above, but it is hard to say what is happening or not happening in your system. In many cases “thin” is a matter of the amplifier not having enough power to produce the LF dynamics, or just can’t control the woofer. More / quality power might help that. When I measure my room & system I typically like to measure at 110dBA so that I can see what’s flat and in phase at a little higher levels than talking-level music where a lot of measurements are taken. Either way, measurements will tell you a bit about what’s happening, you might even be getting cancellation in a critical bass frequency from room reflections. Turning up the bass in that frequency will turn up the reflection so you need to know what you’re working with.

Yes, a powered subwoofer set up properly will give the main amp and speakers (if high-passed) more power available for the rest of the music, jayvis might be on to something there also.

I’ve never owned the CM9s, not sure I even know what model they are, so I can’t speak specifically about them but I can say that I’ve owned a lot of speakers that are accurate and flat, but just don’t give the music personality, doesn’t engage the listeners, that can be pairing or any of the components.

Regarding the need for a vintage tube preamp to fatten it up? That is the last place I’d look. Still, aim the gun before you shoot, you need to figure out what your system and room are doing first IMO.
 
If you get a C22 you might also need to get a DAC since the C22 doesn't have one built in. Personally I would get a more powerful autoformer solid state or tube amp first. Either the MC312 or a MC275 and then upgrade the preamp later since in my opinion amps are generally much longer term investments and preamps tend to come and go.
 
Those B&W’s only go down to 46Hz, which could be contributing to the thin sound you’re experiencing. Have you experimented with room placement to try to extract more low end? How large is your room?
 
Picture of my current set-up. I haven't played with speaker placement or room treatment much. I removed the foam plugs from the speaker ports.
 

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sweet tele!

the best part about speaker placement is it's a free mod! personally, I'd experiment with pulling them into the room further, and perhaps away from the side walls. you may want to reattach the grilles with the little one?

B&W recommends placing them .5 meters away from the back walls and side walls:
BOWERS & WILKINS CM9 OWNER'S MANUAL Pdf Download | ManualsLib

Another good speaker placement reference:
Cardas Room Setup Guide

Personally, I've used the Cardas near field methods and more recently referenced the Bob Robbins "rational speaker placement" method for a few tweaks. Especially for adjusting my speaker rake. I'm by NO MEANS an expert at any of this, definitely more of a hack, but have had good results experimenting with speaker placement.

here's Bob's website: Videos • Rational Speaker Placement (myspeakersetup.com)
but more importantly his free advice in a youtube video of him explaining his methods at RMAF:
there's a lot of blah blah blah, but there's good info in there too. And I did not use his suggested song, but my own preferred reference material.

Bob's method is essentially a modified version of the "Master Set Method" master-set.pdf (hifi.ir)

When searching for your Bee Dubs manual, I came across this placement calculator... no experience, but it might be fun to mess with...
Speaker Placement Calculator (noaudiophile.com)
 
I read some test reviews on your speakers and the bass response starts heading for the basement at about 60 Hz. Similar to a Klipsch hersey. So no matter what amp or tube combination you try you will never reach what you are looking for. Yes the speakers are rated to above 250 watts power handling but that doesn't change the frequency response. You might gain some bass placing them against a wall or in a corner but that will make the over all response irregular. So Like some test reviewers recommend I would suggest adding a good stout B&W sub woofer that can be set up to start helping your speakers around 60 to 70 HZ. Maybe advancing to the top of line 700 series B&W might be another choice. The 800 speakers demand more than what you have now for an integrated amp. Some thing like a MA 12000 or 9000. Thats a lot of money. So buy a good sub. and place your speakers properly.
 
Thanks for all the responses. Against everyones advice, when my wife said she was onboard with me upgrading I pulled the trigger before she changed her mind! C22 will be coming in a few weeks. I'm still hoping for a sound quality improvement and I've always wanted tubes in my system so Im hoping I'll get some enjoyment and benefit from the upgrade. The wife also said she'd be down for a power amp upgrade in the near future so I'm hoping an MC 312 will be joining the c22. But you all have got me thinking about upgrading the speakers instead of a power amp now. Do you think I will benefit at all from the preamp upgrade? What should I be listening for?
 
jayvis said:
B&W speakers are notorious for having a more forward or thin house sound signature. Moving to a Mcintosh amp or integrated with autoformers and a tube preamp might calm things down a little, or a full tube/preamp setup might be your ticket. But my experience would tell me that it might be time to move to different speakers or add a decent subwoofer to help balance out the sound while making it sound fuller. There are tons of speaker and/or sub bass system options available that will probably provide an upgrade in sound quality while sticking with your MA5300. One of the best upgrades I've ever made was adding an REL subwoofer to my system. I'm not a bass fanatic, but it just made everything sound bigger, fuller, and better. It also saved a lot of money and time over continually swapping components and speakers.
Click to expand...
 
Hi. I'd like to add a subwoofer to my ma5300. Can you share how you connected it to the ma5300? I've read there are 2 ways. Which way do you use and/or recommend? Thanks.
 
Happydad44 said:
Hi. I'd like to add a subwoofer to my ma5300. Can you share how you connected it to the ma5300? I've read there are 2 ways. Which way do you use and/or recommend? Thanks.
Click to expand...

My REL subwoofer has high-level inputs via a set of Neutrik Speakon connectors. You connect the Neutrik Speakon connectors on one end to the corresponding main speaker outputs on your power amp or integrated amp and the other end connector to the subwoofer. REL claims that this type of connection maintains the integrity of the amplifier's signal to the subwoofer in 2-channel listening. I've found this type of connection to be superior in my system. If you don't have a powered subwoofer with high-level inputs, you can connect RCA cables from the MA5300 Preamp Output to the subwoofer low level or line level inputs. The best advice I can give is to get a quality subwoofer that's the right size for your listening space. You have fine components, so try not to scrimp. I recommend REL, JL Audio, or SVS subwoofers. Have fun and be prepared for a sizeable sound improvement in your system. Let us know what you end up doing and the results.
 
I have an SVS sub with Line Level Inputs and Speaker Level Inputs. The MA5300 has Pre Amp Outputs and Power Amp Inputs. So I have read (and this is done for both the Right and Left connections) that the single RCA male side of the Y adaptor goes into the Pre Amp Output of the MA5300. One of the Y connectors goes to the Sub (not sure of to the Line Level or Speaker Level inputs - this is where I need clarification) and the other Y connector goes to the Power Amp Input on the MA5300. Is this right?
 
Happydad44 said:
I have an SVS sub with Line Level Inputs and Speaker Level Inputs. The MA5300 has Pre Amp Outputs and Power Amp Inputs. So I have read (and this is done for both the Right and Left connections) that the single RCA male side of the Y adaptor goes into the Pre Amp Output of the MA5300. One of the Y connectors goes to the Sub (not sure of to the Line Level or Speaker Level inputs - this is where I need clarification) and the other Y connector goes to the Power Amp Input on the MA5300. Is this right?
Click to expand...

Preamp L & R outputs on the MA5300 to subwoofer L & R Line Level inputs. Then L & R subwoofer Line Level outputs to L & R power amp inputs on the MA5300.
 
So (4) cables? 2 to the sub, and 2 back to the 5300? I have SVS cables now, but for this test I ordered Cable Matters from Amazon (returnable). If all works out, I'll order SVS. Thanks for your help.
 
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