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Using surge protector/power line condition with higher end power cords?

It is not crap, just different experience. I've absolutely heard cable differences and been 100% convinced. Along with friends. The problem is my engineering mind can't let it go without explanation. That's because from a physics standpoint, it doesn't seem likely. Then, the more I control the listening tests, removing any factors that would bias me, the smaller the difference becomes. Until, like the Cheshire Cat, it disappears entirely.
 
I think you have two separate issues.

1. how to protect your gear during an electrical storm.
2. how to filter noise from your AC mains.

If you live in a high lightning strike area best approach would be to unplug everything. Relying on a filtering device to protect against a strike is reaching a bit.
for AC noise you may want to consider one of the cords that either a twisted pair or wound around a large foam core in the center to create some inductance.
 
If you don't want to make your own, and you really want to try on a budget, Cullan makes decent affordable cables. You can try a 10gage for $89
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Or you could try a 7gage for $299 with a 60 day money back if you don't like it
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Pangea Audio AC 9SE MKII Signature Power Cable - 2 Meter - Demo

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Either way, it all depends on your gear, your house electric, if you have a dedicated circuit for your gear among other things.
Try for yourself and go by real world first hand experience. YMMV
 
mcgjohn said:
I think you have two separate issues.

1. how to protect your gear during an electrical storm.
2. how to filter noise from your AC mains.

If you live in a high lightning strike area best approach would be to unplug everything. Relying on a filtering device to protect against a strike is reaching a bit.
for AC noise you may want to consider one of the cords that either a twisted pair or wound around a large foam core in the center to create some inductance.
Click to expand...
thank you. that's the question I really had, rather imprecisely, is I really wanted to try a more expense power cord, but needed to plug it into
my audioquest audiochord protector. I need to have protection. can't really unplug, then re-plug each time I listen. so is it pointless (or almost) using a really good power cord into that power protector that is using it's own, more or less, standard power cord? I was hoping someone had some experience with that. thanks.
 
and of course, has anyone had positive or negative experience using a power cable that says it suppresses rfi/emi or other interference? thanks again.
 
Can you hear RF? The answer is NO.

Does the equipment use the 60Hz AC in the audio/signal chain? Again NO.

The power coming into any decent quality (over about $50) goes into a transformer to change / divide the voltages (+/-), then into diode bridges to turn it to full-wave rectified DC, then through large filter capacitors / bypass capacitors to clean up the dirty DC into smooth DC, then thrugh voltage regulation, often filter caps again (smaller) as it goes into different stages and more regulation, ... not only can you NOT hear RF frequencies (by a huge margin), but the power supply is designed to take sometimes voltage swings of 200V P-P and turn it into smooth DC, that's what it's there for.

Sure, I've tried different cables, different power cords, yes my systems would be considered "high end" by most measures, currently running mostly the power cords that came with and were tested with the equipment I bought because I trust it and it isn't as much of a pain to pack behind my system as some of the boutique cables and the boutique cables really didn't do anything other than turn money into bling. My son has most of my trial and fun purchase cables. I have a box under my bench of some of my "favorites", they're in a box though, not in my system.

I also have a heavy and expensive power conditioner sitting on a shelf in the garage as I realized it too was redundant, using a more reasonable rack-mount power strip.
 
SaturationPt said:
Can you hear RF? The answer is NO.

Does the equipment use the 60Hz AC in the audio/signal chain? Again NO.

The power coming into any decent quality (over about $50) goes into a transformer to change / divide the voltages (+/-), then into diode bridges to turn it to full-wave rectified DC, then through large filter capacitors / bypass capacitors to clean up the dirty DC into smooth DC, then thrugh voltage regulation, often filter caps again (smaller) as it goes into different stages and more regulation, ... not only can you NOT hear RF frequencies (by a huge margin), but the power supply is designed to take sometimes voltage swings of 200V P-P and turn it into smooth DC, that's what it's there for.

Sure, I've tried different cables, different power cords, yes my systems would be considered "high end" by most measures, currently running mostly the power cords that came with and were tested with the equipment I bought because I trust it and it isn't as much of a pain to pack behind my system as some of the boutique cables and the boutique cables really didn't do anything other than turn money into bling. My son has most of my trial and fun purchase cables. I have a box under my bench of some of my "favorites", they're in a box though, not in my system.

I also have a heavy and expensive power conditioner sitting on a shelf in the garage as I realized it too was redundant, using a more reasonable rack-mount power strip.
Click to expand...
Agree that the RF itself is inaudible, but it might cause equipment experiencing it misbehave in an audible way, say, if it drives an amplifying device out of its linear operating region. Transistor equipment is more susceptible to this than vacuum tube stuff is.
 
I’ve run dedicated power lines to my hifi system in two different homes, and both times it was audible.
Not power cords, but a dedicated 12 gauge wire to the stereo outlets from the breaker box.
I suspect it’s just a reduction in noise introduced by all the other stuff plugged into the circuit.
To be fair I did it during other remodeling projects so it wasn’t quite the endeavor it seems.
 
Tromatic said:
This will upset the skeptics. The biggest cable difference I've heard was with a good 75 ohm digital interconnect. A very subtle difference but there.
Click to expand...
The following isn't directed specifically at you, I just used your post in the general sense of skepticism.

Because one doesn't necessarily buy into every anecdote of cables making a difference doesn't inherently mean one is a skeptic insmuch as it just can't be. There are plausible cases and cases where, IMO, not so much.
 
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1a) Unplug with lightning if living in the everything above ground 120v grid and wiring transformers like in the USA (or above ground grid wiring 220, 227, 240 etc grid countries worldwide?
YES, always even unplug with use of the essential surge protectors.

1b) Unplug in case of lightning in our everything below ground grid country The Netherlands for instance?
NOPE. Main rule: Unplug during lightning is not necessary. Search protector? Definitely always yes, especially for fine electronics like AV use.

AC cables need to be safe and proper shielded for the application. That's all. External AC filtering gadgets etc? Or. Expensive super thick power cables make a difference in sound? Nope it does not. Proper shielding, safe does get hot or short in the application. That is all.

In case of an instable fluctuating voltage grid. A power STABILIZER can be interesting or even essential for longevity of the gear involved.

Use radio receiver etc with outdoor antenna. I would always unplug that antenna in case of lightning.

For further questions (and more 'reliable?') info in these matters it is advisable to contact ones electrical / utilities providers, ones AV gear manufacturer and home / fire / storm insurer!

My 2 cents :dunno:
 
Bradbrews said:
I’ve run dedicated power lines to my hifi system in two different homes, and both times it was audible.
Not power cords, but a dedicated 12 gauge wire to the stereo outlets from the breaker box.
I suspect it’s just a reduction in noise introduced by all the other stuff plugged into the circuit.
To be fair I did it during other remodeling projects so it wasn’t quite the endeavor it seems.
Click to expand...
I did the same thing but used the orange 10awg since I had a bunch of extra left over from a project. It did measure less voltage drop under heavy load, but that’s all easily calculated in advance. Have to make sure both the receptacle and breaker are rated for a #10 wire (I'm using Eaton PON breakers and Eaton 8200w receptacles) . Luckily had a deep box in that position since the #10 is a pain to work with. All code compliant, too.

I do have one device (test equipment not audio) that misbehaves while on one half of my split phase but works fine on the other, I figure there must be something noisy living on half, although I haven’t figured out what - suppose it could even be something from the neighbors that share the transformer.
 
As mentioned, sometimes these things can make a difference, other times they don't, or can't. Some of it is system synergy, how "high-end" or revealing the combined system is on a component-level, good hearing and critical listening are other factors that can come into play. Music memory can be wishy-washy, so writing things down in the moment as you hear them can be helpful to reference and compare later. Observations like the bass is now louder and has to be reduced to level-match what it was before, or the highs are now sibilant, hurt your ears, and the volume must be turned down lower than before to reach the same comfortable listening level can be valid observations regarding material changes to a system which can be anything from cables, cords, power conditioners, and even fuses (not to mention the components inside of equipment that can be swapped or upgraded). Sometimes, running these listening tests where you keep one channel the same as the control and try other component changes to the experimental channel before making them both the same can be very revealing in terms of noticing any differences between them in real-time. Part of it also seems to rely on being open to the possibility of something happening in the first place. If you are open to it, you're more likely to notice something different. If you're not, then you won't notice any differences quite as much even if they're there. These tiny details matter more to some people than others. Not everyone even wants to care honestly and this isn't what matters to them, and it doesn't have to be either. Everyone enjoys music differently and it might mean something to them that it doesn't mean to someone else.

Another thing worth mentioning I've found is that there can be many gates/ buffer stages in an audio chain. What comes before may influence but does not always entirely dictate or guarantee what happens after. This can mean plugging in a fat power cord into some skimpy internal wiring of a wall outlet or connecting different equipment together in a signal chain to create a unique sound in an imperfect acoustic environment that is like a unique fingerprint of sound in time and not identically repeatable -even with another person using the exact same equipment in a different acoustic environment. Regardless of what comes before, i.e. the house's skimpy wiring or the crappy power grid, the resulting sound has many opportunities or ways in which it can be cleaned up, filtered or completely altered altogether by the time it hits our ears. Just think of an equalizer and how much control that gives us to shape our sound. Moreover, we're actually equalizing sound to be a specific way all the time without even realizing it is an important concept to consider.

Just from the simple fact of combining everything together that is needed to make a sound, like it or not, we've made decisions that would affect or prevent true linearity from being heard. We may bypass our tone controls and tell ourselves we're hearing the sound as it was intended or meant to be heard, but even room reflections and cheap cables effect this on a practical level, as they color the sound if they're made from anything less than the best, least-interactive materials available. We rarely (if ever) hear true linearity in any room by accident when bypassing tone controls. It doesn't work that way. There are many inter-dependent relationships where one factor can influence others. We mostly don't have an accurate understanding of exactly what all these small effects are that lead to the cumulative net effect without something like a real-time-analysis using an RTA microphone to give us that visibility on the adjusted, actual frequency response curve on the output of everything combined which is where the rubber meets the road and is always going to be a specific, non-linear curve for any unique listening environment -until it can be adjusted through having better visibility on it if desired.

When I think about cables, I don't think they necessarily "add" anything better to sound, so much as the best ones available have the least interactivity or alteration of the signal. The lesser cables interact with the signal more which changes tonality or the sound mostly in negative ways -or at least in ways that aren't present in the original recording. For film specifically, this is reflected in film capacitors and film cable insulation, where teflon/ptfe reliably affords the least interactivity and loss from a dielectric standpoint. This results in the cleanest sound (where practical/ obtainable insulation or film caps are concerned) and is how/why materials can and do matter as they set the performance ceiling of the equipment one way or another -whether we realize it or not.
 
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pac1085 said:
I did the same thing but used the orange 10awg since I had a bunch of extra left over from a project. It did measure less voltage drop under heavy load, but that’s all easily calculated in advance. Have to make sure both the receptacle and breaker are rated for a #10 wire (I'm using Eaton PON breakers and Eaton 8200w receptacles) . Luckily had a deep box in that position since the #10 is a pain to work with. All code compliant, too.

I do have one device (test equipment not audio) that misbehaves while on one half of my split phase but works fine on the other, I figure there must be something noisy living on half, although I haven’t figured out what - suppose it could even be something from the neighbors that share the transformer.
Click to expand...
I used 12/3 Romex. It had a white cover back then (30 years ago). I've gone under the house to inspect a few times. The darn wiring still looks brand new. Flexible, with no signs of rot or damage.
 
Random thoughts-
1) On that messy breaker box, don't confuse aesthetics with electrical properties. Coupling between lines is probably more when they run nice and close and parallel. Not saying it actually matters in this case, but I've built a messy amp that worked great. When I cleaned up the wiring and dressed everything pretty, it oscillated! This also applied to visually symmetric designs. Everything looks symmetric on paper, but in terms of current flow, it's anything but. Trust your scope and Ohm's Law more than your eyes.
2) I can absolutely see how a dedicated power line might be better. Look at the AC waveform on a line with a refrigerator or other power drawing appliance. Or a mini-split with an inverter. It's anything but a sine wave and you don't want your equipment downstream on that same line. The dedicated line may not be immune, but it's bound to be better if the line from the box to the pole pig is any good.
3) I have a built-in dislike of giant power cords stemming from a time when somebody put one on a lightweight unit and I nearly pulled it onto the floor when I went to plug it in because the cord was so stiff (and so unnecessary)!
 
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