Vacuuming a record after cleaning

[Thunderbox]

I have come to a conclusion, vacuuming records to dry them, may not be the best option. I have used many ways to clean records but no matter what, when I looked under the microscope they just were not as clean as I expect. I have experimented with a lot of ways to clean. Why was there still, (using a microscope) a lot of dust and silica on the surface. How is this happening? I have washed records using a 3000psi pressure washer, Spin Clean, Ultrasonic Cleaner, In the sink with dent pullers and paint brushes, Canfab 2 RCM, Clearaudio Double Matrix Sonic Record Cleaner and after the complete regimen all resulted in the same problem, too much dirt. These were the pops and clicks I could hear. I have to wonder, what is the common theme here. Hits me all of a sudden when I was watching TV and a strong beam of sunlight came into the room. The airborn dust was awful. The problem was vacuuming in the last stage of record cleaning. Huge amounts of dust are everywhere in most rooms. Everyone has seen this thousands of times. It's so obvious. Almost all contaminates on our records comes from the air. So maybe, just maybe, sucking dust filled air over the surface of a damp record, is causing the problem. As you vacuum, the make up air rushes in from the room to replace the air you sucked out. This is dust ridden air we see in the sunbeams. It would be very difficult and expensive to build something in which the air quality could be controlled while vacuuming. My latest and ongoing venture into an affordable record cleaning method, seams to have proven that vacuuming, was the problem. So I just stopped vacuuming. After pressure washing with DW I put the records in a vertical rack for drying without vacuuming. The room is 8 by 8 ft and has a small filter running 24-7. Same room I have always used for the majority of my repairing TTs, vacuuming and record cleaning. Couple of hours later, I looked with the scope and they were exceptionally clean, I put them on the tt and they were very quiet. I think my vacuuming record days, are over. This could potentially remove, one of your more noisy and tedious cleaning steps and result in cleaner records. Have a it people.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

Well said. Makes perfect sense and you have obviously observed the results microscopically.

We have never owned a vacuum system for drying LPs, so have never encountered the problem you have highlighted... but I'm guessing you are correct.

On this basis, don't the new ultrasonic cleaners like the HUMMINGURU have a vacuum-dry stage for finishing? If so, same would apply...

 

[dmar]

I finish dry my Lp's with the Record Dr-X, then put them into the Mofi sleeve. No matter how much is done, there is still airborne dust. I just started using an UV flashlight after I sit the Lp on my table & it shows where the dust is. I also use it on my record brush to clean that. It's a lil anal but, I know my Carts stays clean (dust free).

 

[Thunderbox]

Well said. Makes perfect sense and you have obviously observed the results microscopically.

We have never owned a vacuum system for drying LPs, so have never encountered the problem you have highlighted... but I'm guessing you are correct.

On this basis, don't the new ultrasonic cleaners like the HUMMINGURU have a vacuum-dry stage for finishing? If so, same would apply...

Yes I would assume it does.

 

[Thunderbox]

I finish dry my Lp's with the Record Dr-X, then put them into the Mofi sleeve. No matter how much is done, there is still airborne dust. I just started using an UV flashlight after I sit the Lp on my table & it shows where the dust is. I also use it on my record brush to clean that. It's a lil anal but, I know my Carts stays clean (dust free).

Agreed it is impossible to get every single piece but using vacuum to dirty the record with dust as a last step makes everything else you do in your leaning is just crazy. I know how hard it is to convince people that accepted methods of record cleaning is not the best way to go. I am against the flow for sure but when you really think about it.

 

[dmar]

If anyone is interested? This ball will get any thing that is on your record brush;

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[jqp]

Good idea using a microscope to examine records after cleaning to judge how effective your cleaning technique is. I have been using a pocket microscope for years to view before, during and after cleaning. Leaving the record out to air dry would expose it to ever-present dust, so I don't air dry. A clean and absorbant microfiber cloth, just one or two passes with the cloth, is used to dry the record and it is checked again after with a microscope to see if any white specks remain on the record surface/grooves. By the time I bring my freshly cleaned record from the cleaning area to the turntable it is completely dry.

 

[mcgjohn]

The surface contaminants are about the only thing a VAC machine will remove. If you get a powerful enough scope you can see down into the groove. Release agents, stabilizers, and additives all collect at the bottom of the groove. An US or similar method is needed to remove them. I still use a VAC machine to dry the record.

 

[Lou G]

I have never found a need for a vacuum drying step after cleaning records. After ultrasonic cleaning and moving my spindle assembly to the distilled water rinse bath, I would raise the spindle assembly and spin dry my records at a fast rate in a vertical position. This resulted in extremely clean record surfaces. My results are based on analysis with several different surface analytical techniques.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

After ultrasonic cleaning and moving my spindle assembly to the distilled water rinse bath, I would raise the spindle assembly and spin dry my records at a fast rate in a vertical position.

Centrifugal drying... How interesting, Lou.

How do you achieve this at any impressive velocity? [Without converting a power-driver... ]

 

[Fishead]

The surface contaminants are about the only thing a VAC machine will remove. If you get a powerful enough scope you can see down into the groove. Release agents, stabilizers, and additives all collect at the bottom of the groove. An US or similar method is needed to remove them. I still use a VAC machine to dry the record.

Ultrasonic cleaning leaves stuff on the surface when I pull the record out of the bath. I believe this gunk are the micelles talked about in the long thread by @guest110 and actually provide evidence that the process is working as intended. However, this tends to dry when my records are placed in the drying stand so I rinse it off and then dry with a vacuum. I don't own a microscope so have no idea what this step might be causing, and I like the idea of "spin drying" that @Lou G mentions above and might figure out a way to give that a whirl.....vacuum does present with a certain PIA factor, but heretofore I have thought it necessary to fully clean the record. I'll say that to my ear, no complaints about the results......I don't use the US cleaner a lot these days as I've cleaned my entire 3,000+ collection and it's only when I get a few new records that I pull it out, so there's that.....a worthy conversation though as we strive to do the best possible job with our records!

 

[kirk57]

Does your Confab RCM use a shop vac as a vacuum source?

 

[Fishead]

Hi @kirk57, not sure who this question is directed to but yes, I have a Shopvac Mini that is plenty powerful enough to do the job. The more challenging aspect is to arrive at a wand that will serve to pick up the detritus while not leaving behind any and doing no harm to the vinyl itself.....I played around with this for quite a while before settling on a modified crevice tool that does this nicely. But, again, and in deference to those who have seen the grooves with a microscope, I really don't know whether or not any detritus is imparted to the grooves in the process.

 

[kirk57]

The question was to the OP.

The reason I ask is because the air intake on my Nitty Gritty has a filter on it, whereas the input on my shop vac does not.

 

[Lou G]

Centrifugal drying... How interesting, Lou.

How do you achieve this at any impressive velocity? [Without converting a power-driver... ]

I used a low speed motor for my spindle assembly in my ultrasonic bath and when I moved the spindle assembly to the distilled water rinse bath I used a higher speed motor which I ran at an intermediate speed during rinsing. After the distilled water rinse, I raised the spindle assembly and increased the motor speed for spin drying. The spin rate was fast enough for any remaining water droplets to flow to the edges of the records and no visible watermarks remained on the record. I am not sure of the spin rate, but it was not at typical cleanroom centrifugal speeds. This only took about a minute. We used this methodology in our laboratory cleanroom with Si wafers which were spin-dried at centrifugal speeds, typically greater than 1000 RPM but the speed is dependent on the specific process.

 

[Fishead]

@Lou G, is my finding what you might call "typical," that is, with the micelles still clinging to the record surface when the records are pulled out of the US cleaner? If so, then would you also expect those to be partially removed/dissolved in the rinse bath? If so, then it would stand to reason that they would "spin" off as you increase the speed with your "spin-dry" cycle. Man, that really sounds like the bomb as it would have eliminated about 1/2 the time it took me to clean each of those 3,000+ records!!! And better yet, improved the process, no doubt significantly.

PS - I do have a spare US tank that I could set up and use for the bath.....would just need to find a really fast motor and devise a spindle on which to mount each record as it comes out of the US bath.....the wheels are turnin' amigos!

 

[ripblade]

Interesting theory about the vacuum sucking airborne dust on to the record, but I think the real problem is the dust trapped in the wand brush. This is why my wand doesn't use a brush; instead, it uses a nylon mesh. The mesh doesn't retain moisture, doesn't impede airflow, and doesn't harbor dust. It also doesn't generate static.

Mind you, there *is* such a thing as too much vacuum pressure. There should be only sufficient suction to dry a record in a single rotation. More than that will draw more air and dust into the wand and increase static in the record.

 

[Thunderbox]

The surface contaminants are about the only thing a VAC machine will remove. If you get a powerful enough scope you can see down into the groove. Release agents, stabilizers, and additives all collect at the bottom of the groove. An US or similar method is needed to remove them. I still use a VAC machine to dry the record.

The stylus however does not go to the bottom of the groove, it sits above by many microns and rests on both grooved sides. Preconceived notions are what prevents us from improving everything we do in this or any hobby. If you are happy with your cleaning procedure, that is wonderful. It probably gets the bulk of all contaminates. US is a very good way to clean records. Do you put your albums through a Distilled Water rinse in the US after cleaning with a mix solution? I am working on a new way to clean records that will do it faster and with better results than my US machine. Just because we have been doing things the same way for years doesn't make it a better way. It wasn't long ago that US was not used to clean records. Happy listening.

 

[Thunderbox]

The question was to the OP.

The reason I ask is because the air intake on my Nitty Gritty has a filter on it, whereas the input on my shop vac does not.
You could a piece of furnace filter over the intake of the shop vac, that should help.

The seal at the record surface is not perfect and any dust in the air is rammed into the record when vacuuming. Try not using the vacuum and see how it works. As I said earlier I use a small HEPA filter in a small 8 by 8 room 24-7 ($35). Any small room or even a closet would work for drying. Just put the air filter in the room you are going to be using 24 hours in advance.

 

[Thunderbox]

@Lou G, is my finding what you might call "typical," that is, with the micelles still clinging to the record surface when the records are pulled out of the US cleaner? If so, then would you also expect those to be partially removed/dissolved in the rinse bath? If so, then it would stand to reason that they would "spin" off as you increase the speed with your "spin-dry" cycle. Man, that really sounds like the bomb as it would have eliminated about 1/2 the time it took me to clean each of those 3,000+ records!!! And better yet, improved the process, no doubt significantly.

PS - I do have a spare US tank that I could set up and use for the bath.....would just need to find a really fast motor and devise a spindle on which to mount each record as it comes out of the US bath.....the wheels are turnin' amigos!

I have looked at centrifugal drying and I used a drill with some good speed and an adapter to hold the record. I can't however endorse doing that for liability reasons. I always picture someone with a 30000rpm grinder having a record explode in their face. Do not do that please. Next time I will look at the surface with the scope. We have to love the wheel turning. It advances the perfection.