Vandersteen 2C: Room for improvement?

[Pete B]

Interesting that the Peerless mid also has a plastic edge - no foam. The woofer and acoustic coupler have rubber edges so there is no refoaming for the 2Ci systems at all.

Did your mids and woofers have foam edges? Rubber for the acoustic coupler? Just curious, this is what I remember from pictures on e-bay.

 

[AlleyKat]

I have had a pair of 2Ci's for many years that I purchased used.

While they are fairly good in several areas, they have some serious issues in my opinion.

The acoustic coupler has a thermal cutout that comes in fairly early and there are audible issues in the midrange that come across as a veiling or lack of transparency.

The tonal balance shifts so strongly in a standing position that they are basically unlistenable. I thought this was path delay issues between the midrange and tweeter, but later found that it is actually interference from the woofer due to it playing so far into the midrange.

To each his own ears, I guess :headscrat... My experiences are the absolute opposites of yours. I have a pair of 2C's that I truly enjoy. I don't consider a crossover at 500Hz to be "so far into the midrange". As to veiling or transparency, my 2C's are among the most open and transparent speakers I have heard. They are musical, with a tremendous capacity for soundstage and imaging, simply disappearing to allow the music, not the speaker to be the focus :yes:.

At the same time, I use several other speakers in various setups throughout my house: a pair of ADS/Braun L-710A's that I purchased in 1973; a pair of Polk RT 25i's in the living room: and, a pair of New Advents in the bedroom system. I will never part with the ADS/Brauns, I simply have not heard another bookshelf speaker that I like better. The RT 25i's are quite amazing little speakers and fit well into WAF living room criteria.

The New Advents are in the bedroom, as I rarely listen to music there. From reading some of your other posts, I understand that you have a fondness for the Advents. I find them to possess harsh high frequencies and horrible gaps where the midrange should be.

 

[zenith2134]

I like mine.

Pete, the mids and active woofers had foam material for the surrounds; while the passive couplers have some sort of butyl rubber which is fine.

 

[xoaphexox]

I have the 2Ce and enjoy them a lot. They were factory refoamed but the xovers are untouched - they are a royal _royal_ pain to get to manually if you decide to do it yourself you may want to reconsider

 

[zenith2134]

Oh man, after reading about the glued-in crossover board, I am leaving it alone for sure, that's certain. And they do sound good so I'm okay.

 

[Music!]

I have a pair of model 2 vandersteen also. Something that I haven't seen mentioned is that the angle of the speaker (tilt back) relative to your distance from it and your ear height needs to be set correctly to get the best sound. I'm assuming that is true for your model of vandersteens also. you should be able to find the chart on the internet somewhere.

 

[Pete B]

To each his own ears, I guess :headscrat... My experiences are the absolute opposites of yours. I have a pair of 2C's that I truly enjoy. I don't consider a crossover at 500Hz to be "so far into the midrange". As to veiling or transparency, my 2C's are among the most open and transparent speakers I have heard. They are musical, with a tremendous capacity for soundstage and imaging, simply disappearing to allow the music, not the speaker to be the focus :yes:.

At the same time, I use several other speakers in various setups throughout my house: a pair of ADS/Braun L-710A's that I purchased in 1973; a pair of Polk RT 25i's in the living room: and, a pair of New Advents in the bedroom system. I will never part with the ADS/Brauns, I simply have not heard another bookshelf speaker that I like better. The RT 25i's are quite amazing little speakers and fit well into WAF living room criteria.

The New Advents are in the bedroom, as I rarely listen to music there. From reading some of your other posts, I understand that you have a fondness for the Advents. I find them to possess harsh high frequencies and horrible gaps where the midrange should be.

I actually have a (very) serious dislike for Advents as they were designed. It was an accident to find that they sound so good with BSC, better than my Vandersteens in my opinion. I have to wonder if the Vandersteen 2 series got worse in the Ci revision - happens sometimes. I do try to like them, but there is just no comparision in side by side testing to some better models. I heard a problem in the midrange of a much more expensive Vandersteen model, then saw this frequency response plot where there is a serious dip in the response - such a dip is audible in my opinion:
http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/706Vaqfig04.jpg

I do like the Advents with BSC and they are an outstanding value with it.
The Advents have been a serious distraction for me, I wanted to analyze them and move on, however I tend to like to do a job right and then found out how different the NLA, and 5002/12 were and so had to take a look at them also.

 

[Pete B]

I like mine.

Pete, the mids and active woofers had foam material for the surrounds; while the passive couplers have some sort of butyl rubber which is fine.

I don't know how similar the 2 is to the 2Ci, but you might want to try turning the midrange level control all the way down, this does not turn it off - the range is limited. Then listen for a few hours if not more to adjust and bring it up slowly to a point where it sounds best to you. Be curious to here about where it ends up.

 

[Nat]

Can you explain the thermal cutout in the acoustic coupler? I have assumed that the acoustic coupler is simply a passive radiator, and thus has no thermal issues, but I may be wrong, and I'm curious what's going on.

 

[zenith2134]

Yeah, how can there be thermal issues in a driver which is not even electrically connected to the amplifier or crossover? Seems unlikely that there would be an issue unless it was physically rubbing or something.

Pete, what would the midrange adjustment solve?

 

[Pete B]

Can you explain the thermal cutout in the acoustic coupler? I have assumed that the acoustic coupler is simply a passive radiator, and thus has no thermal issues, but I may be wrong, and I'm curious what's going on.

The acoustic coupler's basic behavior is much like a passive radiator in how it couples acoustically to the 8" front woofer. However, the box is about half the volume of a normal system, and this is compensated for by electrically augmenting the drive to the 10" which is a full woofer with magnet and voice coil. There is a thermal (poly fuse I think) limiter that cuts out in my 2Ci's. I believe that the thermal limiter is only used in the 2Ci's and was removed in the Ce's, not positive about this. I believe that they added red LED overload lights in the 2Ce's to warn the user. I'm not an expert on Vandersteens in general, I did however reverse engineer this pair of 2Ci's and know them well.

There were product revisions even within a model run IIRC. I believe that the 2Ce's had a .75" tweeter to start that was then replaced with a 1" most likely for power handling and distortion reasons.

 

[Pete B]

I pointed out that there is a patent by Nesterovic for similar forms of driven "passive" radiators on the Bass list over 10 years ago and gave a reference to the patent number. Don't have it handy now. I'm told that Vandersteen commented somewhere stating that he does not infringe and this is true it is slightly different. I don't know why the patent was not more broad.
I believe that the dual Speaker Lab systems involve that patent.

Edit: Here's the patent #3,984,635, Richard Modafferi is co-inventor. Vandersteen used a cap to the 8" and an inductor to the acoustic coupler which is not shown in this patent as obvious as it might be:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=jax8AAAAEBAJ&dq=3,984,635

 

[Pete B]

Yeah, how can there be thermal issues in a driver which is not even electrically connected to the amplifier or crossover? Seems unlikely that there would be an issue unless it was physically rubbing or something.

Pete, what would the midrange adjustment solve?

Why not try it, I don't want to bias you before you try it, on the other hand don't bother if you are convinced that the speakers can't be improved.

 

[Nat]

PeterB -- that's very interesting. Thanks for the explanation and all the links.

 

[zenith2134]

That is good info. I will try turning down the midrange controls and see where I would ideally set them.

But, I'm still not understanding why this would be beneficial; it would imply that the midrange band is exaggerated, which I don't think is the case. :scratch2:

 

[thedelihaus]

The midrange is the biggest change among the 2C/2Ci/2Ce line. Ci/Ce adopted the higher up the line midrange drivers.

The drivers are more demanding of the design, according to an AK member and speaker repair (and design) technician.

For what it's worth, some folk, including the above mentioned fella, and myself, prefer the 2c midrange and overall sound.

Just my experience and opinion.

 

[dnewma04]

Z, try it out and see what happens. Won't take much time....

 

[zenith2134]

Thanks for the tip. Maybe I'm just expecting too much of them in their stock (used, haha) form. :scratch2:

But I'm bein' lazy at the moment ... and for what? Where's my S-K 'standard' flathead at? BRB, *grabs Brothers in Arms original pressing LP . . . :thmbsp:

 

[zenith2134]

Hmm,

I just turned both of the "oldish" crossover potentiometers to -3dB, hit the tone direct button, balanced her and dropped the needle.

It is less "in your" face, which may be a good think with the Cambridge Audio integrated's neutral character.

But, not being too much of a 'knob-turner' with audio, and being something of a purist, isn't this just adding series resistance with the midrange drivers?

Assuming it's just using up a tad more power, probably negligible, and decreasing overall speaker efficiency/eating up some system damping power...This is no biggy, correct?

 

[Pete B]

Right, it is no biggy at all. I would not worry about more resistance, less damping - this would apply more to woofers. You are simply reducing the voltage drive to the midrange and lowering the output.

A further suggestion is to select some of your better recorded well balanced source material perhaps 5 albums. Then also try them with the mid full up in order to get a better idea of what range in the spectrum is effected. Then try them at say -1.5 dB and + 1.5 dB noting the differences. Where do you think it is best balanced and most natural sounding? I don't know the answer because I've never tried this with 2Cs and room absorbtion is a factor, I am just curious. I would not be surprised however if you find a setting that is significantly better than flat and that is why I suggested that you give it a try.