VHS Hi-Fi instead of R2R or Cassette

[junkaudio]

i use sometimes a sony u-matic for audio all with fixed audio heads nice stereo sound because of high tape speed on u-matic
way better then vhs hifi ! no head drum noice ect ...
r2r or u-matic for me for audio vhs for hardcore

 

[Ed in Tx]

The head spins at the same speed no matter what, but the linear speed changes with the record speed. Since the head is tilted, the rotating head lays down a diagonal track on the tape, and if the linear speed increases, the track gets spread out over a greater distance on the tape.

hmmm.. :scratch2: don't see how since the hifi head width is the same at any given point along its write path, the geometry does change though, faster linear tape movement, shorter head paths diagonally across the tape. At SP speed there will be bands between the hifi tracks. You can demonstrate this by adjusting the tracking control. With an EP recorded hifi tape the tracking will generally adjust from one extreme to the other and usually not lose the hifi audio signal (on most machines). An SP recorded tape tracking adjusted one side to the other will lose the hifi signal when tracking adjusted off the hifi tracks and into the unrecorded bands in between. Been my experience anyway. YMMV.

 

[Ed in Tx]

i use sometimes a sony u-matic for audio all wirh fixed audio heads nice stero sound because of high tape speed on u-matic
way better thsn vhs hifi ! no head drum noice ect ...
r2r or u-matic for me for audio vhs for hardcore

.. but the signal to noise ratio is not nearly as good, maybe 55 to 60 dB. Hifi VHS is 70 dB or so. Zero wow and flutter from VHS Hifi too. Not so with your 3/4" U-matic. But they do pretty well. I have a live Who concert I recorded off of my C-band satellite back in 1988 or so onto a Sony 3/4" machine. looks and sounds almost as good as the same program I simultaneously recorded on hifi S-VHS.

 

[guest102]

I have on occasion attempted to dub music from video tapes onto cassette. From those episodes I learned that not all alleged "hi-fi" VCR power supplies are quiet enough not to impart an AC hum into the audio signal.

A video cassette is just a bigger, slightly more complex audio cassette. If there is a desired recorded sequence in the middle of the tape you still have to invest time and incur additional equipment wear hunting for it. Add to the inconvenience factor the fact that I have gone through many more VCRs than audio cassette recorders in about the same amount of time, plus the current scarcity of new stand alone hi-fi VCRs, and passing on video tapes as music repositories seems to have been a good decision.

 

[gewoonmaf]

Hmmm, I have a U-Matic deck sitting around as well. Might give that a try.

 

[pioneernut]

Back in the early 90's I used to have my dad record 103.7 KKFS San Fransisco late at night on his VHS hifi. Then he'd mail a bunch of tapes of those back to me in college here in Illinios. What better way then to record 6 hours of very little commercials. I should pull those tapes out and take listen, its been probably 15 years since I last used them. The SQ was pretty good, but i could always here a certain amount of noise, that i thought was heads switching during rotation. If the tracking was off you could forget about good sound, also as the tape played more and more that tracking noise became more noticable. In hindsite, I'm glad I put most of my effort into R2R and cassettes.

 

[Ed in Tx]

Yep they're great for taping long radio programs or long segments of programming. I've done a few T-160 8 hr recordings that sound excellent.

 

[Ed in Tx]

An interesting fact: the effective write speed of those video and hifi audio heads spinning at 1800 RPM is 228 inches per second! The tape moves linear at a slightly slower speed (1.31 i.p.s. at SP) than an audio cassette tape.

 

[BrokenHill]

I had some articles or pamphlet's that I got when I bought my Mitsubishi HiFi VCR
back in 1987 and it explained in great detail how those HiFi units worked, I think it
stated that the best video and sound would be at the standard play mode although the
video in more affected by this then the audio.
Maybe I can find all that documentation I have somewhere it had a lot interesting fact's
pertaining to the HiFi sound of these units.

 

[Andyman]

The tapes don't fit so good in my truck's in-dash cassette player.

But they're easier to load than RTR

I have a Mitsu unit here I copied some RTR tapes to before I got out of the format and have a small stack of better VHS tapes to use for recordings, should I want to make one.

But with the prevalence of digital recordings available for download, I wonder if I'll ever do much taping of any sort anymore.

 

[steerpike2]

Would be valid if you had different width hifi heads to write wider tracks onto the tape at the higher speeds. In a multihead machine at SP speed, 58 micron video heads utilize all the tape oxide coating, but the single pair of hifi heads still write the same track width as at a slower speed.

VHS does not make a 'guard band recording' as do other more professional VTR formats and the early Philips "VCR" format. VHS (and Beta) make 'azimuthal' recordings where each head overwrites a part of the previous track - leaving a recorded track that is narrower than the head which wrote it. The heads on opposite sides of the drum have markedly different gap azimuths, so during playback, the head only recovers the signal it wrote, with minimal crosstalk from the two adjacent tracks that were written by the other head.

On lower tape speeds, the degree of track overwrite is greater - leading to a more tenuous recording, more sensitive to tracking error and dropouts.

 

[Ed in Tx]

VHS does not make a 'guard band recording' as do other more professional VTR formats and the early Philips "VCR" format. VHS (and Beta) make 'azimuthal' recordings where each head overwrites a part of the previous track - leaving a recorded track that is narrower than the head which wrote it. The heads on opposite sides of the drum have markedly different gap azimuths, so during playback, the head only recovers the signal it wrote, with minimal crosstalk from the two adjacent tracks that were written by the other head.

On lower tape speeds, the degree of track overwrite is greater - leading to a more tenuous recording, more sensitive to tracking error and dropouts.

Yep that's why most all multispeed VHS machines have 20 micron wide Hifi heads set at + & - 30° angles from each other. At the EP speed you get a little overlap (one micron if the head heights are perfect) since the tape is moving 19 microns with each pass of a head. They set the hifi heads azimuth angles at + & - 30° to prevent interference with the video tracks laid down on top at + & - 6°. But at SP speed you are still laying down 20 micron wide tracks so you end up with almost 2/3 unused for the hifi tracks. Now, some single speed SP commercial machines can have up to 49 micron wide hifi heads which lay down nice wide hifi tracks that when played on a machine with 20 micron heads gives you a lot of video tracking range before the hifi sound is effected.

 

[steerpike2]

Those figures will be for NTSC. Mine are all PAL, & according to my Philips documents Hi-fi head width is 30um, and the written track width is 24.5um - so there is absolutely some overwrite.

PAL machines have never been able to run at 1/3 speed, as could some NTSC machines.

 

[Ed in Tx]

Those figures will be for NTSC. Mine are all PAL, & according to my Philips documents Hi-fi head width is 30um, and the written track width is 24.5um - so there is absolutely some overwrite.

PAL machines have never been able to run at 1/3 speed, as could some NTSC machines.

Yes 19 micron is for NTSC at 60 hz and EP mode. PAL/SECAM LP low speed at 11.7 mm/sec not as slow as NTSC machine EP at 11.12 mm/sec tape speed, and writes 24 micron wide tracks, PAL/SECAM high SP speed 49 micron at 23.39 mm/sec is slower than NTSC SP 58 micron and 33.35 mm/sec speed. Also because of the slower cylinder speed based on European 50 Hz the effective head writing speed is 4.85 meters/second in SP vs. 5.8 meters/sec for an NTSC machine. The hifi heads according to JVC technical specs manual for PAL/SECAM can be from 16 to 49 microns wide, for NTSC a minimum 20 micron for hifi heads is spec'd. Many technical differences in what to most appears to be just a VCR!

 

[mfrench]

I used to to do live music masters to DAT; and then transferred them to VHS HiFi for a listening copy, because DATS are really an expensive format to use for playback (head replacement costs are astronmical). A two hour DAT could be transferred to a two hour VHS tape, for convenient transfers as well.
The VHS machines were far more readily available and affordable, and sounded fantastic.
One thing that I've noticed (but I have not listened to the VHS tapes in a decade), is that they do not transfer well from one machine to the next without fiddling with the tracking azimuth extensively to find the sweet spot.

 

[cbrworm]

I had a couple really good HiFi VCR's in the 80's with seperate record level controls for each channel, audio meters, etc. The best one, a Sylvania with a fold out touch panel died many years ago - I still have the Sony and Mitsubishi. I used them for a while but it was not very convenient for audio and not worth the trouble for me, especially once the VHS machine was replaced by DVD.

 

[Ed in Tx]

The best one, a Sylvania with a fold out touch panel died many years ago -

I'd bet that was the machine based on the Panasonic PV-1730. There were Sylvania, Magnavox, and Quasar versions of that same machine. Separate L & R audio level controls, sound was hifi as well as linear stereo with Dolby for those older pre-hifi stereo tapes. Only thing lacking was an MTS stereo tuner or I would have bought one. It was a year or so too early to have an MTS stereo tuner.

 

[steerpike2]

IOnly thing lacking was an MTS stereo tuner or I would have bought one. It was a year or so too early to have an MTS stereo tuner.

All the early Hi-Fi ones sold here had a 'simulcast' switch - to make them record video off air, and audio from an external FM tuner. Some TV shows were shown with audio on certain radio stations - either for stereo or dual language.
Most of these machines were sold in Europe with Zweiton audio capabilities - but they always omitted that on ours.
Then we got the BBCs 'nicam' digital audio & simulcast vanished.

 

[Ed in Tx]

All the early Hi-Fi ones sold here had a 'simulcast' switch - to make them record video off air, and audio from an external FM tuner. Some TV shows were shown with audio on certain radio stations - either for stereo or dual language.
Most of these machines were sold in Europe with Zweiton audio capabilities - but they always omitted that on ours.
Then we got the BBCs 'nicam' digital audio & simulcast vanished.

Yep that Simulcast switch was pretty common in the early machines even ones from 1984 on that had MTS stereo tuners. They still did occasional simulcasts on TV and FM radio stations, and cable systems like Warner Amex I had then fed stereo for MTV and The Movie Channel on a couple of unused FM frequencies, and you would use a splitter on the cable to feed the RF both to the TV and to the FM tuner. That was State of the Art in 1985!

 

[KentTeffeteller]

VHS Hi-Fi not recommended for audio only. Reasons are an annoying compander system which is not defeatable and can occasionally be audible. Other reasons are many decks are saddled with non -defeatable ALC circuitry. And tapes won't interchange from deck to deck. VHS is very primitive in the tracking stability department. The best audio on a VCR is using a PCM adapter like a Sony PCM F-1 or a Sony PCM 1600 but those must be used with a Sony Beta VCR or a U-Matic VCR due to the earlier reason posted here.