Vintage DAC

[BillWojo]

Thanks for the info on that. That is actually a pic off the internet, I'll open mine back up and see what it has but I think it came with the CS8412. If not I have another unit I purchased off of Ebay that arrived DOA, got a full refund, it has the CS8412 in it. I'm hoping it's something simple, I'd like a good working spare.

BillWojo

 

[xero-D-hero]

The one of mine that I've cracked open also has the Yamaha reciever,but I have'nt had any jitter related problems with mine.
Though I'm using the optical input on this one right now,so that might have something to do with that,honestly I dunno ?

My second D/AC-1000,I did'nt crack that open as I recall.
That one sat in the original box for a good while (was busy),then I pulled it out to test fit it into my Adcom rack enclosure & it's been in there ever since then.
So I'm not 100% sure which receiver that one has.

But yeah that could indeed be another area that can be exploited for gains in some of these units.

That or maybe just use some sorta reclocker or such,I dunno I figured I'd cross that bridge if I ever came to it.

FWIW

Bret P.

 

[gvl]

The one of mine that I've cracked open also has the Yamaha reciever,but I have'nt had any jitter related problems with mine.
Though I'm using the optical input on this one right now,so that might have something to do with that,honestly I dunno ?

My second D/AC-1000,I did'nt crack that open as I recall.
That one sat in the original box for a good while (was busy),then I pulled it out to test fit it into my Adcom rack enclosure & it's been in there ever since then.
So I'm not 100% sure which receiver that one has.

But yeah that could indeed be another area that can be exploited for gains in some of these units.

That or maybe just use some sorta reclocker or such,I dunno I figured I'd cross that bridge if I ever came to it.

FWIW

Bret P.

It's not that they are readily recognizable "problems", or even problems at all. They would show up on measurements but not necessarily audible, although they might be. In general these DACs don't seem to be able to deal well with external jitter, this is where a re-clocker can help with a less than ideal source. An external re-ckocker however can't help with jitter that originates from the inside of the DAC, e.g. Yamaha receiver's high intrinsic jitter.

 

[xero-D-hero]

It's not that they are readily recognizable "problems", or even problems at all. They would show up on measurements but not necessarily audible, although they might be. In general these DACs don't seem to be able to deal well with external jitter, this is where a re-clocker can help with a less than ideal source. An external re-ckocker however can't help with jitter that originates from the inside of the DAC, e.g. Yamaha receiver's high intrinsic jitter.

I totally agree.

I knew I was'nt really saying what I was thinking very well.
I was trying to say something similar but in a different (much more simplified) way.
Something to the effect that it would depend on where the jitter problem was coming from,yadda yadda yadda.
Sometimes one's thoughts don't translate well to the written word.

Still it should be easy enough to swap out the Yamaha receiver chip,I mean that's part of what the 24/96 kit includes.
IIRC the receiver chip is already on a socket so that would make it a pretty simple swap.

As for seeing the jitter in measurements and not hearing the jitter,that's someone elses world,not mine.
I just listen to my DACs,I dont measure them.

Bret P.

 

[gvl]

As for seeing the jitter in measurements and not hearing the jitter,that's someone elses world,not mine.
I just listen to my DACs,I dont measure them.

Bret P.

Jitter can be audible, a re-clocker brought noticeable differences when I used D/AC-1000 with a Chromecast Audio device whose optical output has been confirmed through measurements to be somewhat jittery.

 

[xero-D-hero]

Sure jitter can be audible,I never said (nor implied) it was'nt ever audible.
My comment you quoted above was just refering to those specific situations you mentioned where it was'nt audible yet could be measured.
But yeah I get what you're saying.

We're both saying the same things (more-or-less) just in somewhat different ways.

For me any jitter problems are only my concern once I can actually hear it.
Till then let the measurements be d@mned,JK ~ LOL.

Bret P.

 

[MotherSauce1]

Got my Parasound D//AC-1000 today and really liking the sound. Again, thank you all.

Are you still running the Parasound? Curious if it stood the test of time in your system?!

 

[MotherSauce1]

Since these DACs are designed (i assume) to enhance CD players... I'm curious if any of you are running these older DACs with streamers or PC/MACs and if so do they still live up to high sound quality?

I'm looking at an older Theta for my system.

 

[jt1135]

Are you still running the Parasound? Curious if it stood the test of time in your system?!

The one I picked up was pretty beat up. It sounded fine, but of course had to climb deeper down the rabbit hole. Now using a North Star Design Model 192.

 

[MotherSauce1]

North Star Design Model 192

Now that looks pretty serious! Were there any other vintage DACs in between the Parasound and the North Star? Always curious to know what folks find in the rabbit hole. Hope you're enjoying the North Star!

 

[jt1135]

Now that looks pretty serious! Were there any other vintage DACs in between the Parasound and the North Star? Always curious to know what folks find in the rabbit hole. Hope you're enjoying the North Star!

Nope. Was using a Audio Analogue Paganini cd player for a transport but it took a crap and costs way too much to send back to Italy to get it fixed. Ordered a Nuprime CDT 8 to go with the North Star.

 

[karljansen]

Since these DACs are designed (i assume) to enhance CD players... I'm curious if any of you are running these older DACs with streamers or PC/MACs and if so do they still live up to high sound quality?

I'm looking at an older Theta for my system.

I'm 24 hours into finally figuring out how to stream my iphone/ipad/macbook to a Parasound D/AC-1100 (scored a few weeks ago for a negotiated $70 from a local record store that said "get it out of here") and so far I'm impressed with the improvement over using the standard analog output from those devices.

The solution came after I learned that the Airport Express has a mini TOSLINK output hidden inside what appears to be just a 3.5mm analog out, and that it outputs 16/44.1 audio natively (the Apple TV upsamples any audio input to 16/48, so that wasn't ideal + it only worked with the TV monitor powered on). Once I got the mini TOSLINK adapter from Best Buy and configured the Airport Express to "join a wireless network" (my existing one), it worked like a charm.

(Good 'ole Ken Rockwell's timeless website deserves the credit for walking me through the settings: https://kenrockwell.com/apple/how-to-create-a-whole-house-music-system.htm)

My music sources are lossless FLAC files I'm gradually ripping from my own CD collection, streamed from VLC Player on the MacBook. The only issues are the occasional wireless interference that mangles the sound for a second, and usually only when i'm doing something else on the laptop. Switching everything to 5Ghz range seems to have almost eliminated that problem. Spotify set to extreme quality streams from the iphone/ipad (playback volume limiting off), and that also seems to sound much better now, but more listening and A/B comparisons are needed before I'll know if the difference is all in my head or truly noticeable.

Sitting in the sweet spot typing this right now, I'd say it's sounding pretty amazing.

 

[OnTheBlitz]

I like vintage DAC's. One reason why I built this one back in '93. I converted my DAS-703ES to a DAS-R1. The R1 has two TDA1541-S1 DACS (so two DAC's per channel). To this day, it's still my favorite for 44.1-48KHz.

The outside looks like a 703ES. The inside has the R1 digital and analog boards. I used the 703ES power supplies, interface boards, etc..The digital board is inside the copper plated faraday cage.

My CDP-707ESD'S have pretty good DAC's too. No comparison to my R1 though. They have 2 x BB PCM64P's. This most likely due to the R1's I-V and analog output stages being better, discrete FETs.

 

[gvl]

I'm 24 hours into finally figuring out how to stream my iphone/ipad/macbook to a Parasound D/AC-1100 (scored a few weeks ago for a negotiated $70 from a local record store that said "get it out of here") and so far I'm impressed with the improvement over using the standard analog output from those devices.

The solution came after I learned that the Airport Express has a mini TOSLINK output hidden inside what appears to be just a 3.5mm analog out, and that it outputs 16/44.1 audio natively (the Apple TV upsamples any audio input to 16/48, so that wasn't ideal + it only worked with the TV monitor powered on). Once I got the mini TOSLINK adapter from Best Buy and configured the Airport Express to "join a wireless network" (my existing one), it worked like a charm.

(Good 'ole Ken Rockwell's timeless website deserves the credit for walking me through the settings: https://kenrockwell.com/apple/how-to-create-a-whole-house-music-system.htm)

My music sources are lossless FLAC files I'm gradually ripping from my own CD collection, streamed from VLC Player on the MacBook. The only issues are the occasional wireless interference that mangles the sound for a second, and usually only when i'm doing something else on the laptop. Switching everything to 5Ghz range seems to have almost eliminated that problem. Spotify set to extreme quality streams from the iphone/ipad (playback volume limiting off), and that also seems to sound much better now, but more listening and A/B comparisons are needed before I'll know if the difference is all in my head or truly noticeable.

Sitting in the sweet spot typing this right now, I'd say it's sounding pretty amazing.

Airport Express has been criticized for fairly high jitter on its optical output and these Parasound units are sensitive to incoming jitter. Not that you have to do anything about it short term but if you stumble upon a reclocker such as SPDIF iPurifier at a good price it might be worth a consideration.

 

[OnTheBlitz]

Probably too much $ for some for this device and purpose, but all my sources pass through my Apogee Big Ben Master Clock prior to my DAC's to minimize jitter. It's a very useful device too. Works well with my pro DAC too.

^^there's two of my 707's, Master Clock (top), Dangerous Music Convert 2 Pro DAC (4th down).

My custom DAS-R1 is the 2nd down).^

 

[karljansen]

Airport Express has been criticized for fairly high jitter on its optical output and these Parasound units are sensitive to incoming jitter. Not that you have to do anything about it short term but if you stumble upon a reclocker such as SPDIF iPurifier at a good price it might be worth a consideration.

Thanks for that info. So far I'm not noticing any noise or audio artifacts, but based on this interesting link it seems it's a lot harder to detect in music as opposed to test tones: http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like

This is my first foray into outboard DACs in the audiophile context so I've never had to deal with this issue. I use pro audio interfaces in my home recording studio and everything is perfectly sync'd.

The SPDIF iPurifier is bookmarked for future reference

 

[karljansen]

Airport Express has been criticized for fairly high jitter on its optical output and these Parasound units are sensitive to incoming jitter. Not that you have to do anything about it short term but if you stumble upon a reclocker such as SPDIF iPurifier at a good price it might be worth a consideration.

Update: you were 100% right about the jitter issues with the Airport Express + Parasound. In complex sounding music nothing was detectable, but just now I was listening to some Wynton Marsalis ("Blues" from Black Codes from the Underground), and a couple of minutes in there's a very clear, sustained note he hits with just some acoustic bass under it, and then I could hear a LOT of jitter - very audible pops and clicks. As a test I hooked up the optical cable directly to the MacBook and played the same section. No jitter at all.

Now I'll really be on the lookout for a deal on something like that iPurifier.

 

[gvl]

That may well be something else like network buffering issues due to WiFi dropouts. Pops and clicks would be a pathological form of jitter when it is so bad the DAC receiver loses lock on the SPDIF signal. It is rare but possible and there have been reports of DACs that had issues locking on the Airport Express digital signal. Typically jitter is more subtle, just some extra frequencies not in the original material or noise in the analog output at fairly low levels, not clicks and pops.

 

[karljansen]

That may well be something else like network buffering issues due to WiFi dropouts. Pops and clicks would be a pathological form of jitter when it is so bad the DAC receiver loses lock on the SPDIF signal. It is rare but possible and there have been reports of DACs that had issues locking on the Airport Express digital signal. Typically jitter is more subtle, just some extra frequencies not in the original material or noise in the analog output at fairly low levels, not clicks and pops.

Well, I finally solved the problem and what a saga it was! I tested everything to rule things out and it all came back to the Airport Express (not the DAC, audio files, MacBook, cables, etc). What really tipped me off to the issue was that I got the identical crackling noise out of the analog output on the Airport as I did from the optical port. Long story short, the upgrade to firmware v7.8 is the source of the problem, and downgrading back down to 7.6.9 is the solution. The audio sounds crystal clear now, and I feel comfortable considering the Airport Express to be a quality "vintage DAC" in its own right. I hope this info helps someone! Links:

Firmware upgrade is the issue:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/airport-express-firmware-update-terrible.2134953/

How to roll back the firmware:
https://www.macobserver.com/tips/quick-tip/macos-roll-back-airport-basestation-firmware/

 

[gvl]

Another proof that newer isn't necessarily better.