Vintage Japanese turntable suggestions

[Benihana242]

There are so many good ones and it depends on a lot of factors. The Denon UFO's are very good (Excellent) but I don't personally like how they look. The Technics SP10 MKII is also excellent and the gold standard.

Factors to consider:
Do you want manual, auto - semi auto?
Do you want to be able to switch up the tonearm and install your own? In my experience this has been the largest sonic benefit (But the rest of your system needs to support these improvements)
Do you have a specific aesthetic you're trying to achieve?

There's a big variety of the vintage japanese tables around. Some are packed with tech like the Sony Biotracer Arm Tables, some are more traditional or workhorses - more like industrial hardware, some are very simple/elegant. Direct Drive was a big thing for the Japanese tables and seeing the different iterations is always fascinating.

I had a Technics SL-1600 MKII and it was impressive. I liked how quickly it started and stopped (The brake is super cool) the automatic functions worked well too. Out of the box (After I replaced a couple parts) it was a very solid solution.

I recently got a Luxman PD-441 and it's a whole different animal. The ceiling for it is much higher because you can swap the tonearm out - and there's a few other things that add up to significant differences.

After having the Technics I understand the appeal to them. They are the gold standard for a reason but I also understand wanting to stay away from them for that reason. The downsides of the more obscure tables are lack of resources available to fix them - less forum posts, less available service manuals etc. It can also be tough to find 120v versions of them so maybe you run a 100v with a step up. Not the end of the world but something to consider.

Here are some more obscure ones I've always been drawn to:
Sony PS-X9 (This is their hardcore table)
Sony PS-8750
Pioneer PL-570 (super high valued for some reason)
Sansui SR-929
Luxman PD-441/444

 

[cafe latte]

That is very debatable. Denon, Sony, Micro Seiki and JVC can easily claim the crown of "best DD systems" with as much fairness as Technics.

I would say non beat the SP10MK3, bon are as numerous for spare parts as the sl1200mk2 or indeed the SP10MK2.
Denon for example when the magnetic strip is gone the table is a door stop and some of the others you mentioned have unobtainable parts when they fail which makes the Technics a lot more desirable.
Chris

 

[flavio81]

Sony PS-X9 (This is their hardcore table)
Sony PS-8750

I salute a man of wisdom like you, and "superior sounding plattenspielers" is written with S, is God trying to tell us something?

But a PS-X9 would cost about $5K or at least $3K, not including shipping, preventive maintenance/service, etc. Well, for 3K USD it would be a bargain, honestly.

The PS-8750 at the very least $2K, again not including service/etc. Their owners know what they got. Interesting fact, a PS-8750 costed about the price of four(4) Thorens TD-125MK2 (with thorens arm).

At those prices even a hardcore S-fanatic like me will concede that it would be more cost-effective to seek for an alternative. And the alternative might be a T e c h n i c s ...

 

[Benihana242]

I salute a man of wisdom like you, and "superior sounding plattenspielers" is written with S, is God trying to tell us something?

But a PS-X9 would cost about $5K or at least $3K, not including shipping, preventive maintenance/service, etc.

The PS-8750 at the very least $2K, again not including service/etc. Their owners know what they got.

At those prices even a hardcore S-fanatic like me will concede that it would be more cost-effective to buy something like a Thorens TD-125MK2 and mate it with a top tonearm.

Well yeah - or a TD-124 but we're talking about Japanese tables! As a side note - why single out the 125 MKII? After working on both I prefer the MKI by a small margin. Something about the startup with no clutch and having the whole top plate shudder. I like the switch feel a bit more too.

Plus the OP didn't define a budget. Maybe he's ready to spend some money on a serious system.

 

[flavio81]

PS-8750

And, to further underline my position regarding Matsushita Electric Inc,

In 1975, Technics had nothing like the PS-8750. They (technics) didn't even had any turntable with quartz lock, their first would be the SP-10MKII in 1976(*). Not that I care about quartz lock, but that's other story.

The PS-8750 has a jewelled bearing tonearm with carbon-fiber-composite tonearm pipe. The headshell is also a carbon fiber composite.
The motor is the finest Sony had at the time, their copper-cup-rotor AC motor with its inherent rotational smoothness, used on all their professional turntables up to that time. It is massive.
The speed is measured by magnetic head reading a magnetic track on the platter, like Denon did. On this TT, this produces 4096 pulses per full rotation, far higher than other control methods, enabling very good servo control.
The turntable mat is filled with oil, for extra damping.
The turntable plinth is made of SBMC (sony bulk moulding compound), a mixture of calcium carbonate (a principal component of marble), glass fiber reinforcement and unsaturated polyester with excellent dimensional stability. It has 1/3 the resonance (Q) of aluminium.
Even the turntable lid has a special conductive imprint to either reduce static or act like a faraday cage.
And I know by experience, btw, that this line has a conductive underside so the tonearm leads are in fact within two faraday cages.

This was the reference turntable of the Boston Audio Society (great publications, btw) during the 70s and even early 80s as far as I know. And they liked to listen to and compare lots of turntables.




(*) The first to introduce quartz lock on turntables were the Victor Company of Japan, JVC. Matsushita was part owner of Victor, yet they operated independently and I understand there was some sort of tense competition between the two companies; Victor worked also doing technical consultancy work for other companies, I understand this was an important of income for them and probably their R&D was second to none in japan, after all, they invented the first japanese TV, helical video scan, first line contact (Shibata) stylus, the CD4 system (arguably the last major development on vinyl records), quartz lock, the VHS videocassette, the VHD videodisc, and other stuff.

 

[flavio81]

Well yeah - or a TD-124 but we're talking about Japanese tables! As a side note - why single out the 125 MKII?

Because I think that today it is an example of turntable with armboard built to a very high standard, of really good sound quality and still affordable.

After working on both I prefer the MKI by a small margin. Something about the startup with no clutch and having the whole top plate shudder. I like the switch feel a bit more too.

I hate that clutch !! Hate, it, hate it!! What were they thinking?

In fact i hate to service that model, that's why I sold the two 125MK2 i had. However, i'd admit that once you get everything right, the sound quality is pretty high. I increased the sound quality of mine by removing the !¨£!£!)(%¨!^£&!(* spring suspension and replacing it with rubber grommets. This has the advantage of dampening the ringing of the top plate. The only penaltiy is a very small, non intrusive, amount of rumble.

 

[Benihana242]

I meant the MKII compared to the MKI (TD-125)

I have been on a turntable journey and I've restored three 125's. One MKI and Two MKII's. There was something about the MKI that felt better to me but thinking about it I've always preferred the MKI version of the Thorens Tables. One of the MKII's I was struggling with the speed board as it needed more comprehensive replacement parts than the other two and I ended up replacing all of the potentiometers and op amps in addition to the capacitors. It sure is satisfying to get it all working and the speeds so precise.

I don't like the suspension on the 150/160's but I don't mind it as much on the 125's since it's the whole top plate that's suspended. It does sound really amazing, you're right about that.

I've since moved to the 124 which I prefer because they're more mechanical which is more of a comfort zone for me than electrical and I'm in love with the clutch on the upper platter for switching records. I bought two that needed to be restored because I wanted to understand if parts were missing and have a reference. It turned out they were both complete so I fixed them both up and rebuilt their motors and replaced a bunch of the parts with new Audio Silente parts.

 

[theophile]

And, to further underline my position regarding Matsushita Electric Inc,

In 1975, Technics had nothing like the PS-8750. They (technics) didn't even had any turntable with quartz lock, their first would be the SP-10MKII in 1976(*). Not that I care about quartz lock, but that's other story.

The PS-8750 has a jewelled bearing tonearm with carbon-fiber-composite tonearm pipe. The headshell is also a carbon fiber composite.
The motor is the finest Sony had at the time, their copper-cup-rotor AC motor with its inherent rotational smoothness, used on all their professional turntables up to that time. It is massive.
The speed is measured by magnetic head reading a magnetic track on the platter, like Denon did. On this TT, this produces 4096 pulses per full rotation, far higher than other control methods, enabling very good servo control.
The turntable mat is filled with oil, for extra damping.
The turntable plinth is made of SBMC (sony bulk moulding compound), a mixture of calcium carbonate (a principal component of marble), glass fiber reinforcement and unsaturated polyester with excellent dimensional stability. It has 1/3 the resonance (Q) of aluminium.
Even the turntable lid has a special conductive imprint to either reduce static or act like a faraday cage.
And I know by experience, btw, that this line has a conductive underside so the tonearm leads are in fact within two faraday cages.

This was the reference turntable of the Boston Audio Society (great publications, btw) during the 70s and even early 80s as far as I know. And they liked to listen to and compare lots of turntables.


View attachment 3709477

(*) The first to introduce quartz lock on turntables were the Victor Company of Japan, JVC. Matsushita was part owner of Victor, yet they operated independently and I understand there was some sort of tense competition between the two companies; Victor worked also doing technical consultancy work for other companies, I understand this was an important of income for them and probably their R&D was second to none in japan, after all, they invented the first japanese TV, helical video scan, first line contact (Shibata) stylus, the CD4 system (arguably the last major development on vinyl records), quartz lock, the VHS videocassette, the VHD videodisc, and other stuff.

Matsushita wasn't the part owner of Japan Victor Corporation. JVC/Victor was wholly owned(and still is) by Matsushita. You are getting Matsushita a little confused with National /Technics brand and corporation. Matsushita wholly owns both the separate corporations Victor/JVC and National/Technics which compete in the market. Hence both of them figuring largely in the development of Japanese Direct Drive.

There are a lot of truly great Japanese Direct Drive turntables and some not so great. Some which are great and durable. Some which are great when new but time takes its toll. Some easy to service. Some a beeyach. Get a great one and you should be celebrating.

 

[MajorCavalry]

Not sure if this counts. Luxman PD 284 from the mid ‘80s

 

[flavio81]

Matsushita wasn't the part owner of Japan Victor Corporation. JVC/Victor was wholly owned(and still is) by Matsushita. You are getting Matsushita a little confused with National /Technics brand and corporation. Matsushita wholly owns both the separate corporations Victor/JVC and National/Technics which compete in the market. Hence both of them figuring largely in the development of Japanese Direct Drive.

National, "National Panasonic", and Technics, were made by Matsushita, there wasn't any "National", or "Technics" company. Your post tags "National/Technics" as a corporation, this isn't correct. "National", "National Panasonic", "Panasonic", "Technics", "RAMSA" and others were just brands of products made by Matsushita, Matsushita Electric Industrial Co (company) is the manufacturer, which in 2008 changed name to Panasonic.

JVC/Victor products were made by Victor. Victor Company of Japan is the manufacturer, and they happened to label their products "Victor" in the japan and "JVC" outside of it.

Matushita never fully owned JVC. They were a majority (approx. 52%) shareholder from 1953 to 2008, then they reduced the shares and then later JVCKenwood was created.

So, my premise "Matsushita was the part owner of Japan Victor Corporation" is correct.

 

[Tonoje]

There are so many good ones and it depends on a lot of factors. The Denon UFO's are very good (Excellent) but I don't personally like how they look

I felt that way once. I've come around a bit, the way they sit above the plinth is a bit ungainly, but I got used to it. I'm about neutral on the looks now, even though I'm not hair-shirt enough to say I don't consider the look of my components at all and only care about the sound. I do actually think the form factor and the aeshthetic is a part of the pleasure of owning something - why on earth not - and turntables are the centrepiece(s) of an audio system for me. Also I tend to like functional looking rather than flashy design (always a Garrard, R-O-K etc. admirer), and the Denons meet that well.

The Denon I have (DP-75), a late and largely impulsive purchase as I already had enough turntables, has been a nice surprise. I've been using it alongside a Technics SP10 Mk 2 as my two main players, and I like them about equally. The SP10 has some advantages, so I'd say to anyone who has access to one and the money to buy it (all applicable vintage caveats taken into account, but that's true every time vintage is mentioned): just get it, you won't be able to beat it. But if they can't or won't get the SP10, there are definitely many other nice Japan turntables from that approximate era to hunt down, and some will of course be cheaper. For what it is, the DP75 is practically giveaway prices where I live, yen equiv. of $290 at the moment. You see why I've written off Rega and Pro-ject and their ilk.

 

[flavio81]

The Denon UFO's are very good (Excellent) but I don't personally like how they look.

I have a DP-3000 waiting to be installed in a plinth. I think it looks phenomenal. I don't use it because I already have two Sony TTS-2500 installed on plinths with good tonearms, and I don't think the DP-3000 would make a big difference. But i love staring at it. The TTS-2500 looks boring compared to the sexy DP-3000.

 

[The Fonz]

FWIW, 2-years ago I purchased my SL-1200MK3 as a NOS table from Unisound and it was a smooth transaction. I contacted them direct to avoid the eBay fees.

The table was packed extremely well and nothing was damaged.

 

[muovimies]

I would say non beat the SP10MK3, bon are as numerous for spare parts as the sl1200mk2 or indeed the SP10MK2.
Denon for example when the magnetic strip is gone the table is a door stop and some of the others you mentioned have unobtainable parts when they fail which makes the Technics a lot more desirable.
Chris

I'm not sure something being more common makes it more desirable. More practical perhaps, which in turn might make it more desirable for some people, yet others would view rarity as desirable by itself, the OP seems to fall into that category by wanting to avoid Technics because they are so common. Anyway...

In my view the magnetic strip only becomes a real issue people should worry about if turns out they lose enough magnetics overtime by themselves to become unusable, but does that really happen in a timeframe that makes any practical difference? Other than that it's just something to be aware of when buying one or when shipping the turntable for example. I'm pretty sure in my 15 years of frequenting audio forums I've never come across a thread on a Denon turntable where a known working unit developed problems because of the magnetic strip got damaged somehow. Which makes sense, how often do people really damage the insides of their platters, even when being ignorant to the fact there might be something important there? Even searching for it, it's difficult to find actual failures (even ones where it was damaged in shipping or ended up being the failure point of a turntable in unknown condition, though I would imagine those exist), only endless words of warning. It's important to know the magnetic strip is there, but beyond that it really doesn't seem to me like it's something to be concerned with.

I like things being repairable, but honestly a lot of the times it just seems needless worrying. It's good to be aware of these things to be able to make informed buying decisions and it might be something to take into account when more money is involved. If you can't do the repairs yourself and the gear is cheap enough, it might not make any practical difference - the repair bill might be too much anyway to make any sense.

Besides I've had a lot of vintage gear in the past 15 years it's been a hobby of mine and failures in my experience are quite rare. The ones with build quality issues or bad patches of components are likely to be in the landfill already, the ones that have survived this far seem likely to keep on surviving, with the caveat that the electrolytic caps or semi-conductors might need some attention at some point. But even electrolytic caps seems to last way better than people give them credit for, given that they are not in an excessively hot environment or operated too close to their max voltage. I've only run into bad caps in an amp once, and in that case it was a design that runs quite hot and the specific caps were known to have issues, either because of temperature or just a bad year for Nichicon. Every other amp I recapped, every cap I pulled measured still fine and some of them were 60 years old.

 

[cafe latte]

I'm not sure something being more common makes it more desirable. More practical perhaps, which in turn might make it more desirable for some people, yet others would view rarity as desirable by itself, the OP seems to fall into that category by wanting to avoid Technics because they are so common. Anyway...

In my view the magnetic strip only becomes a real issue people should worry about if turns out they lose enough magnetics overtime by themselves to become unusable, but does that really happen in a timeframe that makes any practical difference? Other than that it's just something to be aware of when buying one or when shipping the turntable for example. I'm pretty sure in my 15 years of frequenting audio forums I've never come across a thread on a Denon turntable where a known working unit developed problems because of the magnetic strip got damaged somehow. Which makes sense, how often do people really damage the insides of their platters, even when being ignorant to the fact there might be something important there? Even searching for it, it's difficult to find actual failures (even ones where it was damaged in shipping or ended up being the failure point of a turntable in unknown condition, though I would imagine those exist), only endless words of warning. It's important to know the magnetic strip is there, but beyond that it really doesn't seem to me like it's something to be concerned with.

I like things being repairable, but honestly a lot of the times it just seems needless worrying. It's good to be aware of these things to be able to make informed buying decisions and it might be something to take into account when more money is involved. If you can't do the repairs yourself and the gear is cheap enough, it might not make any practical difference - the repair bill might be too much anyway to make any sense.

Besides I've had a lot of vintage gear in the past 15 years it's been a hobby of mine and failures in my experience are quite rare. The ones with build quality issues or bad patches of components are likely to be in the landfill already, the ones that have survived this far seem likely to keep on surviving, with the caveat that the electrolytic caps or semi-conductors might need some attention at some point. But even electrolytic caps seems to last way better than people give them credit for, given that they are not in an excessively hot environment or operated too close to their max voltage. I've only run into bad caps in an amp once, and in that case it was a design that runs quite hot and the specific caps were known to have issues, either because of temperature or just a bad year for Nichicon. Every other amp I recapped, every cap I pulled measured still fine and some of them were 60 years old.

I have a Denon here with a magnetic strip which got worse and worse till I could not adjust it anymore so now it is a door stop.
The SP10MK3 is about as good as it got turntable wise and the mk2 is also very good and both can easily be fixed.
There are some lovely vintage DDs but most are a time bomb with unobtainable parts inside.
With a SP10MK2 you have an amazing table which is very easy to fix which counts for a lot IMO.
You may not think the Denon magnetic strip is a problem, but I can tell you it is, I have one here. Also there are other parts on the Denons you need to get new old stock which are getting harder to find.
The beauty of the SP10MK2 is simplicity. A recap and you are good to go for another 50 years, if the chips do die thry are off the shelf. Few vintage have this and the humble mk2 has vanishingly low wow and flutter and rumble too.
All I am saying is it is a make sense option.
I have 4 of thrm and a G and just ordered the new one along with all my other tables. Is the G better, I dont thing so, but it is very good, we will see how the new one is.. the Mk2 serviced is very very good indeed.
Chris

 

[muovimies]

I have a Denon here with a magnetic strip which got worse and worse till I could not adjust it anymore so now it is a door stop.
The SP10MK3 is about as good as it got turntable wise and the mk2 is also very good and both can easily be fixed.
There are some lovely vintage DDs but most are a time bomb with unobtainable parts inside.
With a SP10MK2 you have an amazing table which is very easy to fix which counts for a lot IMO.
You may not think the Denon magnetic strip is a problem, but I can tell you it is, I have one here. Also there are other parts on the Denons you need to get new old stock which are getting harder to find.
The beauty of the SP10MK2 is simplicity. A recap and you are good to go for another 50 years, if the chips do die thry are off the shelf. Few vintage have this and the humble mk2 has vanishingly low wow and flutter and rumble too.
All I am saying is it is a make sense option.
I have 4 of thrm and a G and just ordered the new one along with all my other tables. Is the G better, I dont thing so, but it is very good, we will see how the new one is.. the Mk2 serviced is very very good indeed.
Chris

Completely agreed on something like SP10MK2 making a ton of sense and of course off the shelf parts are always preferable, especially when you get to the price points of these better drive units. With something like the lesser Denons (DP-3000 etc, even DP-75 can be had for quite reasonable money) they are often cheap enough paid repairs might not be all that sensible even if possible - at least from a financial perspective, one would never recoup the money they have put into it if they decided to sell it.

I'm curious about this Denon platter, how did that happen? Was it working completely fine until it developed speed problems out of nowhere which got fixed by adjustment and then it kept redeveloping the problem overtime until it ran out of adjustment? Has it been tested with a known good platter to make sure it is indeed the magnetic strip that's the problem? If changing the platter fixes it, do you know if anything happened to the bad platter at any point or if it just gradually lost magnetics for no apparent reason?

 

[cafe latte]

Completely agreed on something like SP10MK2 making a ton of sense and of course off the shelf parts are always preferable, especially when you get to the price points of these better drive units. With something like the lesser Denons (DP-3000 etc, even DP-75 can be had for quite reasonable money) they are often cheap enough paid repairs might not be all that sensible even if possible - at least from a financial perspective, one would never recoup the money they have put into it if they decided to sell it.

I'm curious about this Denon platter, how did that happen? Was it working completely fine until it developed speed problems out of nowhere which got fixed by adjustment and then it kept redeveloping the problem overtime until it ran out of adjustment? Has it been tested with a known good platter to make sure it is indeed the magnetic strip that's the problem? If changing the platter fixes it, do you know if anything happened to the bad platter at any point or if it just gradually lost magnetics for no apparent reason?

I got the Denon free broken. ( I fixed the other issues ) I could not get it to go without adjusting thr head closer to the platter. It worked for a while but started to play up again and adjusting the head very close fixed it for a while longer, then it had issues again but there was no more adjustment possible. I have checked everything else in the circuit several times, it is definitely the platter, they degrade just like old tapes do.
Chris

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Hi Everyone,

I have a couple modern TT's in the house, but I'm interested in trying out a Vintage Japanese turntable for a change of pace. I'm looking preferably for a direct drive but would also consider a belt drive. Looking for something towards the higher end of the product stack. My current tables are a Clearaudio Concept with a Dynavector 10x5 cart and a Rega P3 with an Ortofon 2M Bronze. Both are nice tables but looking for something that would go with my Yamaha C-60/M-60 system that is age appropriate.

I'd like to stay away from Technics if possible. No reason except they seem to be common.

Thanks

They're common because outside of a few known troublemakers, they're well built, reliable, durable turntables who at the high end proved themselves in broadcast stations, recording studios, discos, clubs, and everywhere high quality, consistent, reliable vinyl playback is demanded. Consider the best Technics models, they're the best choice for those who demand no fuss, no frippery turntables which must be high performance workhorses. I've tried many other makes, all over the world. Technics is what I keep coming back to.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Look up the Yamaha GT-5000. Remarkable and beautiful! I know you said vintage but earlier TTs in the GT series are wonderful!

View attachment 3707851

Not recommended with that nonsense arm with no offset angle, however.

 

[theophile]

Not recommended with that nonsense arm with no offset angle, however.

I'm renowned for my admiration for the GT 2000 series. The fact that Yamaha both named and styled that thing after the 2000 series Greatly and Tremendously disappoints and annoys me.