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Vintage Mac Tube Amps. Stock Or Tweaked?

True within reason. Unless you have a time machine, there is no way to know what these originally sounded like in 1957 or so. Even a bone stock unit is not going to sound like it did 50 years ago. That said, I trust what Terry knows and would follow his recommendations. John


Sloober makes a point here that took me a couple of years to sink in through my thick head:D - that we will never know just exactly what an MC30 sounded like when it rolled off the line.

Back around 2003-2004, when the collective knowledge base on this and other forums had yet to develop on this topic to the level it has today, the typical response from most vintage Macheads was "keep it original as possible - fix only what needs fixing", and that "much of the 'magic' that the MC30 possesses is in part due to the caps". OK, fair enough - except that I was unable to keep MC30s operating for long with all original parts....so the question of "what parts to use" became a question borne of necessity.

THAT questioning is what prompted a fellow forum member to get in touch with me and "use me" as a "lab rat" by allowing me to listen to various MC30s with differing cap sets. This was an education beyond my wildest dreams - nothing like getting to demo real MC30s in such a fashion!

One of my primary concerns was avoiding turning the MC30s into "modern sounding amps". I got a taste of just what that could sound like with my second set of MC30s - stuffed full of Wima and various other poly and mylar caps. Those amps worked OK electrically - but OH BOY were they bouncy:nono:

I can tell you beyond doubt that the Sonicap Platinums did NOT make the amps sound "modern". Lack of fog, yes. Truly clear, yes. But still an MC30, by way of that superb midrange, and the comfortable, warm, and easy-to-listen-to character that we've come to expect from these vintage Mac amps. They have some of that McIntosh RICHNESS....that full, "comfy like your dad's La-Z-Boy" kind of sound that we all love about those vintage Macs.

Now I would say that I think the K40, or a K40 blended with a "middle of the road" kind of cap would be a build that might be more of what vintage lovers might expect.

I couldn't choose the original bumblebees, as those are very old caps, and is a big question whether 50 year old caps (even NOS) would hold at real world operating voltages. So I HAD to look at modern options. And there are a LOT of options.

I find that the resistors are just as much "in play" WRT the sonics as the caps can be. I like carbon comp or carbon film in these generally (carbon comp A/B's are hard to do because of the drift issue, carbon films are easier because there are new options available).

Now I think the world of Terry - dude is a walking Mac encyclopedia, and I would rarely if ever ignore his advice. Similar comments toward the AC crew. However, I think our collective experimentation has added a great deal of light to the beacon that Terry provides to us here. Some of us had to ask "what if", and that persistence is a big reason I am with these MC30s for life.

And that's quite a feat for me, because I'm one of those superbly anal high efficiency speaker loons, who as stated previously is crazy enough to want two MC30 build pairs to satisfy as much of my audio fetishes as could be possible via MC30s:yes:

As a collective, the idea of rebuilding/"blueprinting" the innards is an accepted norm today for many, particularly for amps not working, and MUCH more is known about the options within the build, which is a huge advancement for all of us over just five years ago.

As is so often the case in this hobby, there is a whole range of "workable" correct answers. My suggestions are two of a host of possible ways to do this.
 
When the vintage McIntosh amps were new,were the speakers as good as we have today?How about the vinyl and cartridges?It would be hard to know what a Mcintosh amp sounded like in 1960.The goal that I had with my Mc240 was to just make it sound good,which I think it does. I actually enjoy the nostalgia of having a 40 + yr.old amp that thanks to my efforts,sounds great in 2010.The power supply re-build is a necessity and the Russian PIO coupling caps get my recommendations.I left the four160P mylar foil caps in place as per Terry Dewick,and since the amp sounds nice,will probably leave them for now.
 
To change the pace of this thread a bit...

I am currently procuring parts for a MC30 rebuild. My primary concern is what should I use to replace resistors. I have read a few different approaches and other than the Mills being used for the 150 ohm 10w posiistion I am sort of at a loss at what to use.

I see Mike Swarmas thread referenced by OP, in his thread Mike stated he used a conmbination of Mills and KOA Sphere's. I have to believe that in this case he was using carbon comps but I am not sure.

I have also seen a thread where one of our members used a combination of Kiwames and Rikens. Again I believe these were selected because they are carbon comp and probably tight toleranced.

I guess what it comes down to for me is price versus performance. I have looked at the 3 brands that I have previously mentioned. With the Kiwames and Rikens there is a lot of cost involved. The KOA's seem much more resonable and avail through Mouser, would the extra cost of the boutiques really justify there selection ???
 
First off I enjoy reading these type of posts even though they cause me to often shake my head...

I am old enough to remember my neighbor adding a second Mac amp, a new C8s, and another Jensen speaker to create a new fangled thing called stereo, and the effect records to show it off. There began my interest in HiFi.

All this tube memory lane posting caused me to dig around in my audio closet a while ago where I found this box labeled "Last NOS tubes from McIntosh" Finally made the time to see what was inside.

As I remember back in 1988 or so Mac stopped repairing tube amps at the factory. Dave OBrien had stopped replacing tubes at clinics 4 or 5 years earlier and it all had to do with the terrible quality of the tubes available. Dave had told us that the factory was culling over 8 or 9 tubes to get just one good one.

I had a 2 or 3 MC240s and while talking with Mike (service manager) about my plans on ordering relabled tubes from Canada (embargo) he offered to peruse Mac's leftover NOS and send me what he had.

GE 6L5GC
Telefunken 12AU7A and 12AX7
RCA 12AX7A and BH7A

This might provide some insight to McIntosh's perspective from the late 1980s.

Curious, I went into my old parts stash and found that I still have some probably only good for window dressing "Made for McIntosh" original GE6L6s. ( I also found a boxed factory matched pair of Amperex EL37s wherever they came from I dont know, I believe the are not compatable with the GC voltages)

As much as I enjoy reading about tube rolling and cap sound to us trying to keep these working back in the 70s and 80s it was all about the output tubes and trying to find ones that made spec. You don't know how good you have now got it!
 
........As much as I enjoy reading about tube rolling and cap sound to us trying to keep these working back in the 70s and 80s it was all about the output tubes and trying to find ones that made spec. You don't know how good you have now got it!

To quote Vinny Barbarino:

" I KNOOOOOOOOOOOW":D

It's not just the parts options either - it's the collective sharing of this info on forums like these that allow us to to make the most of those options.

Yes - an audio enthusiast today really does have it good:yes:
 
hey-Hey!!!,
Modify them slightly. Get rid ov the 12AU7 phase splitter spec'd so as to allow simpler wiring. Install a 6CG7. Get rid ov the 18k tail load and the mismatched plate loads used to compensate( partially ) for a less-than-perfect tail load. Replace the 12BH7 12k plate loads with CCS-es and eliminate the positive FB in that stage. Once that is done, the loop NFB circuit can be removed; the 50% cathode loading is *MORE* than enough NFB to reduce output impedance and deliver a very linear power stage. Run 12AT7 in the cathode follower stage; it is a much better CF than the 12AX7...the AB2 power stage needs a minimum impedance drive a 12AX7 can only dream of. For the MC30, replace that 50R resistor in the PS filter with a choke; even Dynaco recognized this was worth spending money on.
cheers,
Douglas
 
hey-Hey!!!,
Modify them slightly. Get rid ov the 12AU7 phase splitter spec'd so as to allow simpler wiring. Install a 6CG7. Get rid ov the 18k tail load and the mismatched plate loads used to compensate( partially ) for a less-than-perfect tail load. Replace the 12BH7 12k plate loads with CCS-es and eliminate the positive FB in that stage. Once that is done, the loop NFB circuit can be removed; the 50% cathode loading is *MORE* than enough NFB to reduce output impedance and deliver a very linear power stage. Run 12AT7 in the cathode follower stage; it is a much better CF than the 12AX7...the AB2 power stage needs a minimum impedance drive a 12AX7 can only dream of. For the MC30, replace that 50R resistor in the PS filter with a choke; even Dynaco recognized this was worth spending money on.
cheers,
Douglas

Might as well buy a Chinese knock off instead of a 60 year old icon.
 
To change the pace of this thread a bit...

I am currently procuring parts for a MC30 rebuild. My primary concern is what should I use to replace resistors. I have read a few different approaches and other than the Mills being used for the 150 ohm 10w posiistion I am sort of at a loss at what to use.

I see Mike Swarmas thread referenced by OP, in his thread Mike stated he used a conmbination of Mills and KOA Sphere's. I have to believe that in this case he was using carbon comps but I am not sure.

I have also seen a thread where one of our members used a combination of Kiwames and Rikens. Again I believe these were selected because they are carbon comp and probably tight toleranced.

I guess what it comes down to for me is price versus performance. I have looked at the 3 brands that I have previously mentioned. With the Kiwames and Rikens there is a lot of cost involved. The KOA's seem much more resonable and avail through Mouser, would the extra cost of the boutiques really justify there selection ???

anybody have any thoughts here ???
 
Restoration vs. alteration is the theme of this thread.I agree that after major circuit changes are made,you may as well just have a new tube amp.I found the posts above comparing the effects of different types coupling capacitors very interesting and informative.I imagine that it would also be interesting to hear a vintage MacIntosh that had major circuit changes made to determine if in fact the change was positive.Change may not always be good after a point.It boils down to what expectations are.On the other side of the coin,I can't understand how a untouched vintage tube amp can be more sought after than one that has had the out of spec.components replaced.As it has been stated here many times that old components are not the same as they were when new,and the assertion that a un-touched amp will have the original sound is a fallacy.
Dave
 
It is the "classic car" dilemma: Should you prepare/repair/replace parts/modify the car for best operation, or should you strive for maximum originality (which might carry more collector value)?

For maximum operability, the case could be made for full parts replacement (resistors/caps/power supply).....and after experimentation even modification in some cases. However, if you DO modify the circuit, it's not really an MC30 anymore - that said I don't discount reported sonic improvements or changes. It IS a personal decision.

I lean towards the "original schematic with best parts replacement options", which is the best "middle of the road" for me: best condition original chassis and schematic for better retained value, yet with parts that make the amps totally operable and good sounding.

Why would an MC30 with 100% original parts be more desireable? Well, if it's MINT - TRULY MINT condition, there is no other condition that would make an MC30 more valuable.....let's say for example a mint pair of MC30s in boxes with all original tubes and parts as installed from the factory. Most collectors who would pay the big bux for such a pair of amps would purchase for the COLLECTABILITY - basically to have on a shelf to show off, and NOT to operate. No other MC30 would be worth as much as all original in boxes and new condition.

Both of my amp pairs were procured in a partially serviced condition, which meant I had nothing to lose in terms of collector value: I got better deals because they were altered, in fact my consecutive pair were in such fine condition otherwise that I would say that I probably saved $1500 on them - JUST because many of the old parts were swapped out.

As for the resistors: Riken and Kiwames are two well known brands that are very good in these vintage amps. I can personally attest to these resistors maintaining that relaxed sound that MC30s are known for. Many modern resistors are made for modern gears, and can impart a more modern sound on the signature. Rikens are no longer made to the best of my recollection so they may draw a price premium because of that fact.....but they are very good for this purpose, as are the Kiwames. Both of these resistors were recommended personally by the builders who lovingly rebuilt my MC30s, and the desired results (not turning the MC30s into "modern" sounding amps - just clean, yet warm/relaxed) were achieved here.

I cannot speak for the Mills....haven't used them, but I'm sure there's someone who can shine light on what might be expected sonically with those as well as other resistors mentioned here.
 
In antique collecting,condition is everything.Original surface or finish,original paint,original patina and so on are very important.A furniture piece in it's original old,grungy finish might actually look better stripped and refinished to some,but it would severely devalue the piece to strip it.Unlike the amp.,it is still fully functional in it's original surface.I can understand wanting the case of a old amp.to be in good condition and unaltered,but if the capacitors become leaky just passing time,even in the original unopened box,I can't understand just wanting to have it to sit in a display case.
 
I can understand wanting the case of a old amp.to be in good condition and unaltered,but if the capacitors become leaky just passing time,even in the original unopened box,I can't understand just wanting to have it to sit in a display case.

It does seem counterintuitive to some, but many of these super minty all original examples of classic hi-fi are purchased for display or collection only. I've seen more than my share of collector displays where there are rows and rows of classic gears - just sitting on shelves - and are not intended to see a wall socket. There is a class of audio enthusiasts/collectors worldwide who buy many of these kind of pieces for collection or display only, as well as "investments". Many of the best examples of these classic gears existing in the world today are only "shown" by their owners, and not listened to. These people will have the listening stash of gears, then the stuff that's the "collection" - and those are typically "all original".

Similar mentalities surround collecting vintage vacuum tubes. It's beyond being an audio enthusiast - it's for "investment"/store of value too.
 
Interesting.I wonder how many car collectors never,ever drive their cars.Even collectors of fine and rare antique clocks run them.There is a upper level collector in every venue that finds value in the pristine and rare.I can appreciate anything old that is like a time machine back to the day it was made,but it is far more interesting to me if it is functional as well.
 
As for the resistors: Riken and Kiwames are two well known brands that are very good in these vintage amps. I can personally attest to these resistors maintaining that relaxed sound that MC30s are known for. Many modern resistors are made for modern gears, and can impart a more modern sound on the signature. Rikens are no longer made to the best of my recollection so they may draw a price premium because of that fact.....but they are very good for this purpose, as are the Kiwames. Both of these resistors were recommended personally by the builders who lovingly rebuilt my MC30s, and the desired results (not turning the MC30s into "modern" sounding amps - just clean, yet warm/relaxed) were achieved here.

I cannot speak for the Mills....haven't used them, but I'm sure there's someone who can shine light on what might be expected sonically with those as well as other resistors mentioned here.

Audible Nectar, thanks for your input... I have talked to a member regarding the resistor issue, I think I know exactely the direction I am going to pursue.. From what I understand the Takmans are very nice as well
 
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