VTF help for Jico SAS/B VN35E

[Alfmonster]

Hi AK community!

I recently got a Jico SAS/B VN35E stylus for my Shure V15 iii (Mounted on a SME3009 ii improved/Thorens TD150 mk i). And have been trying to set the correct VTF. I’ve read thats

Can anyone help with how they set theirs? I tried it at 1.22g and 1.07g. It sounds good and seems to be tracking well at 1.07 - but am worried that maybe I might be tracking too light. 1.22g sounded pretty good as well but I didn’t want to put too much weight on the suspension.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance!!

 

[tnsilver]

Hey Alf. Don't worry about it too much. Jico says it's OK from 1g to 1.5g and it is usually best at the upper third of the allowed range. Forget about the second decimal - it's just throwing you off and likely isn't even in the resolution capability of the digital scale you're using. If it sounds good and tracks fine at 1.2g leave it at that. If it doesn't - go up. You can do 1.5g. No problem. Nice rig!

 

[Alfmonster]

Hey Alf. Don't worry about it too much. Jico says it's OK from 1g to 1.5g and it is usually best at the upper third of the allowed range. Forget about the second decimal - it's just throwing you off and likely isn't even in the resolution capability of the digital scale you're using. If it sounds good and tracks fine at 1.2g leave it at that. If it doesn't - go up. You can do 1.5g. No problem. Nice rig!

Thank you @tnsilver ! I can always count on you for great advice - I’ll give it a go at 1.2g and see how it does for a few days - it took me a while to come around to picking up a Jico but boy does it sing - I imagine it’ll just keep getting better as it breaks in.

 

[tnsilver]

You're welcome Alf. Just a few words about those 1/100th parts of a gram that some scales insist on showing... In most cases the cheap Asian scales cannot register such fractions of a gram. Their components are not sensitive enough. The display however, can round what seems to be arbitrary signals, to whatever decimal place. It's just a harmless bluff. That, however, isn't why it's insignificant.

The 1/100 part of a gram isn't even adjustable with most tonearms that I know. Take, for instance, the SME 3009, where VTF is set by adjustments of the rider weight on the wayrod. It's tough enough to nail the 1/10th part of a gram of VTF, with each division representing 0.25g. Heck, sometimes it's pretty hard to even nail the 1/4th of a gram without missing the division mark. It's not much easier with the Technics style rotating CW and it appears most tonearms were not designed for the owners to set VTF within the 1/100th of a gram tolerance. I'd derive from that - it is also insignificant stylus wise.

FWIW the Ortofon DS-1 digital scale I'm using, doesn't even support the 2nd decimal figure. Not because it's incapable - but because it is useless information that typically causes more distraction than good when it comes to VTF. I am not using it to sell diamond dust and gold nuggets where the 1/100th part of a gram might matter - I'm using it for stylus VTF where the 1/10th part of a gram is simply adequate. Beyond that resolution it becomes irrelevant.

it took me a while to come around to picking up a Jico but boy does it sing

I bet it does! It's the best aftermarket option out there. A perfect match for the 3009 with a good solid TT. spensive too... Sure it sings!

 

[Alfmonster]

You're welcome Alf. Just a few words about those 1/100th parts of a gram that some scales insist on showing... In most cases the cheap Asian scales cannot register such fractions of a gram. Their components are not sensitive enough. The display however, can round what seems to be arbitrary signals, to whatever decimal place. It's just a harmless bluff. That, however, isn't why it's insignificant.

The 1/100 part of a gram isn't even adjustable with most tonearms that I know. Take, for instance, the SME 3009, where VTF is set by adjustments of the rider weight on the wayrod. It's tough enough to nail the 1/10th part of a gram of VTF, with each division representing 0.25g. Heck, sometimes it's pretty hard to even nail the 1/4th of a gram without missing the division mark. It's not much easier with the Technics style rotating CW and it appears most tonearms were not designed for the owners to set VTF within the 1/100th of a gram tolerance. I'd derive from that - it is also insignificant stylus wise.

FWIW the Ortofon DS-1 digital scale I'm using, doesn't even support the 2nd decimal figure. Not because it's incapable - but because it is useless information that typically causes more distraction than good when it comes to VTF. I am not using it to sell diamond dust and gold nuggets where the 1/100th part of a gram might matter - I'm using it for stylus VTF where the 1/10th part of a gram is simply adequate. Beyond that resolution it becomes irrelevant.

I bet it does! It's the best aftermarket option out there. A perfect match for the 3009 with a good solid TT. spensive too... Sure it sings!

Haha - I’ve been living a lie! That’s an incredible clarification regarding the precision of the digital scale. I had always wondered about that.

Yeah, the Jico was a bit pricey tbh - I winced a little when I pressed the purchase button bc I had no idea other than what I had read on various forums. However it seemed like a less expensive option than the shure v15iii HE or MR cart/stylus upgrades. (Dangerous question as it might get me curious) Do you know how the shurev15iii/Jico compares to those higher shure v15iii models?

 

[tnsilver]

Sorry Alf, the V15 isn't one of my expertise. I was always a stan/pick guy with a bias towards the 681eee and 881S. The last stylus I've used was a Jico SAS and it was by far the best after market stylus I've ever installed. Unfortunately it wasn't good enough. I've found it not on par with the NLA stock stereohedron stylus. Consequentially, over the last couple of years, I've adopted an all MC policy. My own 3009 Series II imp now carries a Denon DL-301 Mk-II. I do miss the 881S presentation - but I'm not going back to after market stylus land.

 

[Alfmonster]

@tnsilver Oh interesting, what made you switch to MC from MM? I had looked into but I have a McIntosh MX110z which doesn’t seem to be compatible with a majority of MC carts — so I’ve had to stick with MM.

I have a Pickering XV-15 carts/stylus. I picked up a while ago to use on a stock TP11/tp62 which was good, but have a feeling wasn’t a great match - perhaps due to tonearm. Haven’t tried it with the SME yet - a good match? Maybe time to pickup a new headshell. Do you have any recommendations on settings you have found optimal for the XV15 on the SME?

thanks for recommending that Denon - how do you like it? Have you noticed a differences between the Denon MC cart and other MM that would be similar? Looks like it would be a perfect match for the SME arm and TT.

 

[tnsilver]

what made you switch to MC from MM?

The funniest of all reasons. The MM/MC flip switch selector is in the back of my Nak CA-5 pre amp where I can't see it. I feel for it with the tip of my finger. I had three Thorens TT's on the shelf above it, some with MC carts, some with MM's. Every time I'd swap a turntable I'd have to remember to set the MM/MC selector accordingly and I could not keep up. Too often my setup sounded murky and distorted on account of me forgetting to flip the MM/MC switch and I'd be panicking around it trying to correct it with all the wrong adjustments. So finally, I've decommissioned my beloved 881S MM and swapped to an all MC setup. I don't stick my fingers behind the electronics no more. Problem solved.

I've had a lot of reservations regarding the Denon DL-301 Mk-II compatibility with the 3009 Series II imp (fixed HS) on account of it's compliance spec'd at 100Hz. I wasn't sure about it until I finally pulled the trigger at a tad over $300 and tried it my self. It's an amazing combination and I love it. I seem to have overlooked the fact that it's actually an elliptical stylus. For some reason I had it in my mind that it's conical like the DL-103. It's not - albeit the SQ is very similar. I've had no issues with the elliptical tip of the DL-110 so there was no trauma when I finally realized the 301 was elliptical too. I just paid some extra attention while aligning it. I find it very balanced, pleasing and at 1.4g VTF it exhibits no tracking issues whatsoever. The gamble paid off. I'm happy.

I still miss the 881S. I think the stage (imaging) of that cart was phenomenal - but I got tired of being disappointed time after time with after market styli and these experiments begun to amount to serious money. I should have purchased the overly priced stock stereohedron stylus from the little supply that pop up on ePay occasionally - while at it. It would had been cheaper. I finally said good bye and went all MC.

 

[Alfmonster]

Haha it’s nice to know that I’m not alone in the panic when something sounds ‘off’, spending a bunch of time only to find in the end that it was something simple. The aftermarket stylus world is actually adding up to some serious $$$$ for me as well — however I did try the Jico at 1.2 on the shure v15 and it shure sounded beautiful.

I’ve been going down a rabbit hole regarding the Stanton 681eee, 881s, and the Nak CA-5 - it seems the 881s is legendary — as well as the phono section on the NAK CA-5. I’m so curious about how this combo sounds - what amp do you have paired with the CA-5?

If I might ask one more question as I’m so ccurious how similar is the Pickering XV15 to the 681eee? And have you matched the 681eee to the sme3009 ii imp?

 

[tnsilver]

I think the Pickering XV-15 came in a few flavors - most compatible with Stanton 680 line of carts with the 1200E being identical to the Stanton 681eee MI cart. Stanton had their "calibration standard" which means the carts were manually tweaked to comply with a stricter set of specs. The stylus assembly on the Pickering is different than the one on the Stanton, but essentially - it's the same thing with a stereohedron tip.

The 681eee I've initially matched with the SME was a Florida version (I think it was dubbed Mk-II) but IIRC it wasn't a stereohedron tip. I've later obtained a Mk-I (made in the NY factory) with a stock NOS stereohedron tip. It was a heck of combination. The 681eee / XV-15 is no slouch and it's compliance is a perfect match for the lighter SME 3009's. I've always favored it over the different Shure stereo-dynetic elite series of carts. The Stanton 881S is a complete new league though so it replaced the 681eee for many years until the 681eee sank in the oblivion drawer where old carts await their rediscovery.

My CA-5's phono stage is a Nelson Pass design. It is one of my all time favorites. It used to be some bang for the buck too - but IDK about that now. It is currently having fun with an Accuphase P300 after rotating out a Sansui 9090DB, a 9090 none DB, an Alchemist Forseti APD20A a Luxman L430 and various others that I pay not too much attention to. The 9090DB is going back in rotation soon. I hate to admit it but that receiver tops out all those wonderful power amps. I've tried to quit it in the past - it's beyond me. I now admit there's a higher power and that it's out my control. I'm using JBL speakers exclusively. My L100 century's were purchased new by my dad in the early 70's. My 4311's are the 2nd pair I've renovated and I keep a pair of Jubal L-65A's and an amazing pair of 4333 that are the pro division equivalent of the L300 summit. The other side of the CA-5 is usually hooked to a Thorens TD-124 or a TD-125 or a TD-135. I've thinned down the Thorens herd and reduced it to the three turntables that I actually use. I no longer keep in my possession a TD-16X variant - for the first time in decades. I've had over a dozen. I also gave away the Technics, Duals, Empires and VOM changers to family, friends, associates and colleagues. I may do the same with the rest. I'm keeping the CA-5, the 9090DB and all JBL's for my self.

 

[Alfmonster]

Whoa that’s some beautiful gear! Those Thorens TT’s - not sure if you’d need anything more.

Probably for the best, but my lack of space has kept me from going too crazy. It’s like playing Tetris between two bookshelves.

Now I’m really curious about the Pickering I have — perhaps I’ll try picking up an extra headshell so I can give the XV15 a listen - and keep an eye out for the 881s. Thank you for sharing all of that great information!