Warning to sellers: Loophole allows refunds for buyer's remorse.

[centexguy99]

PayPal is truly above the law. They make their own laws, and there really is nothing you can do about it, short of an expensive lawsuit.

Your chance of winning a lawsuit is almost nonexistent because when signing up for paypal you have to agree to their terms of service that allow them to do anything they see fit to do and waive any recourse you otherwise would have. You have contractually forfeited your right to litigate your differences.

 

[Descartridge]

If you are a crook, you can make a living on those sites. And there are a lot of crafty crooks on them.
For me, those sites are a last resort.

 

[62caddy]

On the other hand...

Despite the apparent drawbacks of the PayPal payment system, the fact remains that few would be willing to buy anything from an unknown person, perhaps thousands of miles away - if the buyer has no protection whatsoever or recourse.

So unless every transaction were at arms' length, your odds of selling that $8,000 JBL woofer or $6,000 Western Electric tube amp would be utterly sunk.

Same goes for eBay: It is because the buyer is infinitely protected, it guarantees the greatest bidding pool which translates to far higher selling prices - on average - than what would have been realized, if this had not been the case.

An ideal parallel is Manheim Auto Auction, a huge automobile auction for dealers only in Manheim PA. It is one of the oldest, and most respected dealer auctions in the country with customer service (that is to say dealer service) second to none. The selling rules are so stringent, so severe that unless a vehicle is sold completely "as-is" it is much easier for a dealer to arbitrate a purchase at Manheim better than at most other auctions. Arbitration decisions involve - depending on the severity of the misrepresentation or lack of disclosure - either giving the buyer an "out" of the transaction or a discount on the purchase price which would have to be agreed by both parties.

Hell - I even know of a big time wholesaler who runs 100+ vehicles through the sale every Friday (sale day). (That was years ago; he may even be up to 300 cars a week now -it's been a while since I've been down there)

Anyway, a dealer who bought a Grand Am from the big wholesaler complained the tire treads were low - and this on an 8 year old car at the time and worn tires should NOT be arbitrated because a defect of this nature is in plain view! Guess what: The buyer still got $200 off the price - for something he should have known about - and he probably did.

BUT the fact is that vehicles at Manheim Auto Auction bring some ridiculously high money - practically retail money in the vast majority of sales - particularly those from trusted sellers. If I had to source my inventory from Manheim, I would be out of business.

The bottom line is this: In order to get good money for these audio "niche' items, you need a strong audience. Not every sale is going to go the way we want and heaven knows the customer is often wrong. You just have to look at it like "taking one for the team" every now and again. It's not a perfect world after all.

The implication of having a much smaller buyer base (due to a lack of recourse on its part) would be far worse - in the final wash - for the seller - on average.

 

[Oerets]

Audiomart, never sold there. Now never will if this can happen with so little recourse.

Crooks or less then honest might be move prevalent because of lax oversight or trusting nature.

Ebay might charge a higher fee but if you get paid in the end then a better avenue.

Barney

 

[ra7c7er]

with as easy as it is to set up websites now-a-days I'm surprised more people (medium to high volume sellers) aren't making their own websites.

Sites like this one http://www.emodelcars.com/ are relatively cheap and pretty much offer the same rate of protection that ebay does but it also allows the owner of the site to limit the site to certain people. Say only allowing members of this site. Granted smaller audience than ebay but much less hassle. Plus if you have a repeat offender you can ban them something ebay is very very reluctant to do even after 6-7 or even a dozen complaints.

 

[audiomagnate]

with as easy as it is to set up websites now-a-days I'm surprised more people (medium to high volume sellers) aren't making their own websites.

Sites like this one http://www.emodelcars.com/ are relatively cheap and pretty much offer the same rate of protection that ebay does but it also allows the owner of the site to limit the site to certain people. Say only allowing members of this site. Granted smaller audience than ebay but much less hassle. Plus if you have a repeat offender you can ban them something ebay is very very reluctant to do even after 6-7 or even a dozen complaints.

That was the idea behind usaudiomart, but they don't take any commissions or offer any protection, and the site has been absolutely invaded by scammers lately. Just look at their forum, it's mostly scammer reports. I don't think my buyer was a scammer, just an unethical DB that found a better deal after the purchase (which he admitted to me on the phone) and figured out how to work PayPal's seriously flawed system.

 

[SuperLead100]

Tough situation for an honest seller. But I do agree that without a high degree of protection for buyers you're back to placing ads in the local classifieds; very small audience I guess with the reward comes the risks and we have to be prepared to absorb them. Losses by sellers helps create inflation of goods to make up for those losses.

 

[usedto]

Ebay and Paypal were brainchildren of people who had the idea, the money, and the guts to put them in place. They gave common folk the opportunity to take "things" they would normally throw in the garbage, and sell them via a larger audience than they could have ever imagined. They provided a service, and made a reasonable profit in doing so.

The problem is - no matter how good of a deal you give someone, there are always those who will try and screw anyone they can out of a reasonable profit. Example - selling a mint Pioneer SX 1950 on the bay for $25, then charging $2000 for shipping to avoid the fees. Didn't take 'em long to figure that one out, so the rules got changed.

Having been in the retail business since 1981 and being tired of dealing with the general public on a daily basis, I started selling some of my inventory on eBay just over 60 days ago. I'm selling things to people who would otherwise never know I had, and for prices that are 10-20 times what I would have charged if they walked in my door in years past. I have a pallet of 8 1/2" X 11" x 5 mil clear acetate sheets (for overhead projectors) that I would have thrown away 5 years ago if I could have gotten my forklift to it. I put a pack of 200 sheets on the bay and immediately had people bidding on it. Right now it's one of my best sellers.

I don't care for all the rules either, but the exposure and customers they give me is well worth the inconvenience. And, I will never put anything on that is really expensive that would cause any serious financial harm if I lost out.

All in all, it's a pretty sweet deal.

 

[cc43fan]

I had a "refused delivery" issue not too long ago.

Another AK'er and I had agreed on a trade, I shipped my gear, and as he was preparing for shipment he broke part (Tonearm) of his gear. He tried to send a substitute, and explained that it was as good as the original. My concern over the sub was that it didn't contain the upgrades as the original (which was a bullet point while offering it to me, and a potential bullet point should I decide to pass the gear along).

We discussed it via email, and he agreed to repair the item and send it to me, and I would send back the substitute. When he found out the cost of repair which was apparently too costly for him, and rather than discuss it with me he simply refused delivery. I received an email telling me the deal was off.

The issue as I see was a few things.
He should have discussed the repair cost, and maybe we could work something out.

It's unfortunate that he broke it, however what ever happened to honoring a deal?

Lastly, it took over two weeks to get the gear back from USPS (even though I sent priority mail). Once I got it back, it needed to be unpacked (inspected for damage), re-packed, and then back to the drawing board to re-sell it. To the AK'ers credit, he did cover my original shipping costs, but he simply walked away, while I got nothing but hassle.

It's unlikely I'll do business with the individual again, and the reality is I'll most likely never do a trade via shipping again.

 

[guscjr]

Loopholes galore in 'Not as described'

Marc at the Sound Gallery in Austin (awesome guy, awesome store) is holding them (L300's) for me while I figure out what to do. This, along with bogus "item not as described-give me a discount!" claims are becoming alarmingly common lately.

It's a good thing I just spotted this thread and not a month or so back or I'd probably blow a gasket. EBay/PalPal burnt my sister twice on 'item not as described' in totally different scenarios. I work in partnership with her having convinced her to get an account to help her when she had no income due to medical disability.

The first was for an international buyer who bid and won a turntable when it was not offered for overseas buyers. We didn't check since the shipping address was to a New York address, coincidentally a shipping company. Thought okay, maybe he's the owner or works there. About 4 weeks later she gets a notice of 'item not as described' and we find the item - turntable - had been re-shipped to Romania. In spite of having used two separate boxes instead of one large one as normal and stated in the listing, that overseas shipping/bids weren't offered, and the item had been reshipped by means unknown - they sided with the buyer!!! He was to return the item which he refused to do and wanted us to simply refund his money in full while he kept the 'table!!

The second recent transaction was for a pair of Energy Veritas speakers which were in like new condition. I took two days to properly pack those speakers with $50 in packing material and another $120 shipping cost. Photos were taken the day before the listing was posted; the buyer bought and paid the very night the went up. We advised him of progress in packing. No reply. The shipper picked up the speakers from my door and they were delivered 2 days later. No reply. Fast forward 25 days later - we get a notice from EBay that a 'not as described case' has been opened. The claim is that since no damage was visible, we must have shipped the speakers damaged as one corner was 'significantly damaged' - please send replacement speaker. We pleaded our case, showed photos of the packaged speakers prior to pickup, showed more photos with the date taken, and thorough explanations. The buyer then showed a closeup of a corner and then another shot of a dinged tweeter which is about 6-inches down on the plane of the cabinet and was never mentioned. Bottom line: buyer wins case after 25 days with no word, no claim of damage to forward to the carrier. The seller is left to receive damaged goods with no chance of making a claim since packaging may not be intact or not the same as sent.

So beware it is definitely happening and is a definite loophole in the system. A buyer can wait up to the 30th day, say absolutely nothing and make the claim and it seems regardless, sellers are going to lose. Fortunately we stood up to the bluff and the seller never shipped the speakers back. Guess is that it was a planned scam from the gitgo with him having some of the speakers already. It's still infuriating to have to deal with having your PayPal funds on hold during this 10-15 day process and then knowing you're paying x-amount of dollars back if you lose the case - which is almost certain.

**PS: By the way if I had my old truck, I could have picked those speakers up for you and brought them back at least as far as Dallas to help save on the expenses, but I'm in a Toyota RAV4 now. I'm supposed to go down Austin way to deliver some speakers for dc270 to Marc next Wednesday.

 

[rudyg]

With the new fees (10%) and all the changes to eBay that favor buyers I try to not sell there anymore except for items that require large exposure to sell. Audio gear is easy to sell via CL and the like, and I rather not deal with shipping delicate items either.

 

[BMWCCA]

An ideal parallel is Manheim Auto Auction, a huge automobile auction for dealers only in Manheim PA. It is one of the oldest, and most respected dealer auctions in the country with customer service (that is to say dealer service) second to none. The selling rules are so stringent, so severe that unless a vehicle is sold completely "as-is" it is much easier for a dealer to arbitrate a purchase at Manheim better than at most other auctions. Arbitration decisions involve - depending on the severity of the misrepresentation or lack of disclosure - either giving the buyer an "out" of the transaction or a discount on the purchase price which would have to be agreed by both parties.

I've been a dealer myself and work for one now. I remember one Mercedes E300 I was running through in a Friday sale. The first run the buyer went to arbitration and Clem (the Manheim arbitrator at the PA sale at the time) told me the tranny was bad and there was a miss and the buyer wanted to negotiate. I refused. Clem told me I should check under the hood and sure enough a hose was disconnected. He said it happens all the time and told me "those damn towel-heads use that tactic to negotiate every sale".

It was early in the day so I ran it again (no charge) and it sold for more money. Clem called me to arbitration again and told me the buyer wanted to negotiate because there was a "hole" in the floor pan. Now this was a fairly new car. No rust. No damage. Clem and I both figured they'd used a punch and a hammer to make the fresh hole on the way to arbitration. I refused.

The day was winding to a close but I got a spot in the last lane and ran the car again stating that it had a miss and a hole in the floor pan but was being sold as is. It brought even more money the third time and then the auction closed. I never heard another word about that car. Made for a long day but it felt good.


I'm sorry to hear about the OP's problems. That just sucks. The way this stuff plays out is part of the reason I jumped on a pair of Craig's List 250Tis recently as they were close enough to drive to and inspect, and pay, in person. I paid more than I wanted to but avoided nearly every hassle I could conceive of having on Ebay.

I hope it all works out!

 

[4-2-7]

Have you called Ebay and talked to a real person who speaks American?


I don't see how you can fulfill your obligations and ship item. To have them refusse for no other reason then to cancel transaction.

Calling PP might be done after calling Ebay first.



Barney

What's this strange language you speak of?

I would like to know what Oerets meens by this comment as well.

 

[bobabode]

I would like to know what Oerets meens by this comment as well.

Non automated American English. What are you getting at Dan?

 

[HankHandy]

He's getting at, making that happen when contacting eBay is a tall order.

Folks, eBay is systematically eliminating the small seller. They have publicly stated it years ago. eBay is no longer the model it was conceived as, they are just riding on the tails of the "good" name it once had. The reasoning for policy changes is not what they state and to take it at face value is absurd.

I sold on eBay for 10+ years, it was fantastic. Thousands of transactions, all with checks and money orders, not one bad payment or negative feedback.

Tis a sad day.

 

[Snow]

I think he has had the same problem I have had in the past with calling Ebay or PayPal only to get someone based in another country who's accent is so thick that you cant understand a word they are saying even though it is in english.

Personally I don't really care what country your from it only makes a bad experience worse however if you cant understand a word the person trying to help you is saying though.


REGARDS SNOW

 

[Oerets]

What's this strange language you speak of?

I would like to know what Oerets meens by this comment as well.

To answer you question, evidently you may not have talked to many phone centers lately. Talking by chat via messaging or selecting options or a live conversation. I will always try talking to a real live person. But when the people on the other end talk English but with a strong accent, one that I find hard to understand. Even when it is their first language and speak it properly.

By stating ""American"" the only point I was making was someone in the US to talk to. Or even who is use to the language and mannerisms that come from living here. Not necessarily born in the USA but experienced with talking to people in the US. For trust me they have as much of a problem with understanding me as I do them. This gets frustrating quickly for all involved. More so if the truth be known I have a hard time with English.

I think he has had the same problem I have had in the past with calling Ebay or PayPal only to get someone based in another country who's accent is so thick that you cant understand a word they are saying even though it is in english.

Personally I don't really care what country your from it only makes a bad experience worse however if you cant understand a word the person trying to help you is saying though.


REGARDS SNOW

Thanks for helping me out.

Barney

 

[Kneedeepinit]

I just pray that companies don't start locating thier call centers in Scotland.

 

[bktheking]

This post has gotten off the rails in some ways by bringing up race and culture- not sure what refusal of shipping has to do with any of it. People need to be aware that ak usernames are just names- the people behind those names may not be who you think they are and may be offended by posts on this thread.

 

[62caddy]

I've been a dealer myself and work for one now. I remember one Mercedes E300 I was running through in a Friday sale. The first run the buyer went to arbitration and Clem (the Manheim arbitrator at the PA sale at the time) told me the tranny was bad and there was a miss and the buyer wanted to negotiate. I refused. Clem told me I should check under the hood and sure enough a hose was disconnected. He said it happens all the time and told me "those damn towel-heads use that tactic to negotiate every sale".

It was early in the day so I ran it again (no charge) and it sold for more money. Clem called me to arbitration again and told me the buyer wanted to negotiate because there was a "hole" in the floor pan. Now this was a fairly new car. No rust. No damage. Clem and I both figured they'd used a punch and a hammer to make the fresh hole on the way to arbitration. I refused.

The day was winding to a close but I got a spot in the last lane and ran the car again stating that it had a miss and a hole in the floor pan but was being sold as is. It brought even more money the third time and then the auction closed. I never heard another word about that car. Made for a long day but it felt good.

Great tale.

The deplorable act of sabotage at auction seems to becoming more & more prevalent these days. ****in scum of the earth. :thumbsdn: (Pardon the language but it's appropriate here.)

You sure missed the bullet that day; they almost always do less with each run.