• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Well/plumbing issue/question... any pros here?

MuseChaser

MuseChaser

Super Member
Here's the situation/mystery...

Approximately 180' deep well with one or two-year-old submersible pump.. Even newer pressure tank, T-fitting, gauge, and pressure switch set to 30lb min/60lb max. All that works as intended; once the pressure gets down to 30 lbs, the pump kicks on and pressure slowly and steadily rises to 60 lbs and the pump kicks off.

This feeds a relatively recent water softening system, easily bypassable by throwing three ball valves. This, in turn, feeds a rather involved water treatment system installed about two years ago for free by the county or other governmental body (can't remember which) due to a contamination settlement against a local builder who engaged in unsafe and illegal disposal practices, thus contaminating the water table in the immediate area.

I mention all of that only for completeness; it's all been working fine since installation. However, as I was assisting the owner in opening his pool for the season and using an outdoor hose bib on the side of his house to bring the water level of his pool up to the required level, he informed me that he had NO water anywhere in his house.. none of the sinks, toilets, or other fixtures delivered any water at all. The pressure at the hose into the pool seemed weaker than it should be to me, too. The home has a full basement, and the hose bib is fed by one of the lowest pipes in the house and controlled by a ball valve approximately halfway up the foundation wall. The home has two stories above the foundation, with the laundry and a sink in the basement, a half bath and kitchen sink on the first floor, and two full baths (total of three sinks, one shower stall, and one tub/shower) on the second floor.

While we were filling the pool, I monitored the pressure gauge on the tank and it indicated as it should (as described in the first paragraph above). There is a water flow meter incorporated into the treatment portion, and that water flow read properly as the pool was filling.

I tried bypassing the water softener system, but that made no difference; still weaker than expected flow to the pool hose, and no water at all in the house. Shutting off the hose restored water to the house, regardless of whether or not the softener setup was in the system. There is no way to bypass the county-installed treatment system.

The owner is still running into the same issue; when the hose is running, he has no water in the house, although he reports that the water pressure at the hose, or within the house when the hose is off, is stronger again.

I can't for the life of me figure out what is happening. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

edit: The owner also has a whole-house sediment filter coming off the main pressure tank. I replaced the dirty cartridge within it with a new one hoping that would help, but it didn't.
 
Last edited:
Register to hide this ad
I’ve had setups like this. The only thing I can think of, if the pump and pressure tank are working properly, is possibly the diameter of piping going to the hose from the tank. There will be a maximum gallons per minute that the pump can do. Possibly at the maximum through the hose.
One other thing. Make sure your pressure tank is not water logged. I believe that’s the term. The tank should have a certain low level of water in the tank when the pump starts. If the water level is too high when the pump kicks on, you can have issues with the pump cycling.
My 2 cents and it’s been almost 20 years since I had that type of system.
 
I'm not a pro, but I dealt with lots of well s and pumps in the past Here are my thoughts on the matter.

Opening a hose bib with no restriction will inevitably drop the pressure in the rest of the system, especially if the line to the hose bib is close to the incoming water line.
Another factor is the volume of water the pump puts out vs. the amount leaving the hose bib. Once the hose bib is opened and the pressure drops below 30 lbs you are only seeing what the pump puts out.

The issue as I see it is the volume the pump can supply. For residential use fairly low volume pumps are typically specified. One thing that leads me to this conclusion is the fact that you stated "once the pressure gets down to 30 lbs, the pump kicks on and pressure slowly and steadily rises to 60 lbs". This would indicate a low volume pump to me. Maybe checking the gallons/minute rating of the pump and comparing that with the gallons per minute flowing from the hose will verify this as the issue.

Good luck.
 
A very valuable bit of information would be the exact pump installed and the pressure/flow vs depth performance data for that specific pump.

With the system closed/no flow, it's easy to build pressure. But, when there is demand and the pump can't keep up, so to speak, pressure and flow will drop off.

Deeper any given pump is, the less flow it can produce/more work it has to be capable of to offset the depth.. Hence, need to look at the performance curves for that specific pump at that depth, to see if it should work better, or if the setup is pooched right at the source.
 
Last edited:
whoaru99 said:
A very valuable bit of information would be the exact pump installed and the flow vs depth performance data for that specific pump.

With the system closed/no flow, it's easy to build pressure. But, when there is demand and the pump can't keep up, so to speak, pressure and flow will drop off.

Deeper any given pump is, the less flow it can produce/more work it has to be capable of to offset the depth.. Hence, need to look at the performance curves for that specific pump at that depth, to see if it should work better, or if the setup is pooched right at the source.
Click to expand...
And another thing is how fast can you take water out of the ground before the level drops below the pump. Example: A 15gpm flow from the water table would allow a maximum of 15 gpm. Go above that and the water table will drop until you stop pumping.
 
A quick, but incomplete example (no plumbing pressure drop included, etc)....

Given 180ft well, and wanted 10 gpm flow and 40psi working pressure in the house...

180ft is about 78psi head pressure just to pump the water that high. If you wanted 40psi working pressure available you'd be looking at a pump that could do 10 gpm at more than 118psi. More than 118psi because there will be frictional losses in the plumbing, valves, and whatever other pressure drops are in the system.
 
trinhsman said:
I’ve had setups like this. The only thing I can think of, if the pump and pressure tank are working properly, is possibly the diameter of piping going to the hose from the tank. There will be a maximum gallons per minute that the pump can do. Possibly at the maximum through the hose.
One other thing. Make sure your pressure tank is not water logged. I believe that’s the term. The tank should have a certain low level of water in the tank when the pump starts. If the water level is too high when the pump kicks on, you can have issues with the pump cycling.
My 2 cents and it’s been almost 20 years since I had that type of system.
Click to expand...
Yes a bad bladder will cause the pump to kick on the minute one of the faucets is opened and will affect psi , the bladder hads a charge of air in it and compresses as the water pressure rises , then when a faucet is turned on the increased air pressure inside the bladder that was compressed by water pushes the water out delaying the pump being turned on by the pressure switch and allowing the pump to build pressure once it does kick on . The bladder should have an valve steam like a tire which you can check the air charge and possible add air to restore the charge but usually when their really low on pressure the air bag inside has a leak end the tank will need replaced
 
I'm fairly certain it's not the bladder in the pressure tank; the tank, T, gauge, and switch are all less than a year old. I've experienced failed tanks and bladders before, with the associated erratic pump behavior, and this current situation has none of those symptoms.

I don't know the specifications of the pump that was installed, but the posts pointing to low volume capacity as the culprit make sense. I'll look into it. When the outdoor hose is running, the pump kicks on when the pressure drops to 30psi and does raise the pressure steadily back up to 60 psi prior to kicking off, but it takes longer than I'd expect...maybe a full minute?
 
That time doesn't seem unreasonable with the hose running.

No water in the house though is unusual-guessing that it has something to do with the water treatment system that you are unable to bypass.
 
Last edited:
Wondering now if there is some sort of diverter/priority valve causing it, or if all the treatment stuff just has so much pressure drop the water is taking path of least resistance. Sorta presuming the water to the hose bib may not go through all or as much of the treatment system.
 
Time sounds right for a well that deep. The last home we had with a similar system had a well that deep. Your description of time to go from 30-60 is exactly what we had.
 
whoaru99 said:
Wondering now if there is some sort of diverter/priority valve causing it, or if all the treatment stuff just has so much pressure drop the water is taking path of least resistance. Sorta presuming the water to the hose bib may not go through all or as much of the treatment system.
Click to expand...
Good thoughts, too, although the water to the hose bib is after the treatment system; other than various drain valves incorporated at servicing points within the system, there is no way for water to flow anywhere in the house's plumbing without traveling through the treatment system first.
 
Maybe I missed it...

What does the pressure gauge show when the hose bib is open and running full stream?

And, where is the gauge in relation to the rest of the system? Essentially first, before the softener and treatment system?
 
Last edited:
whoaru99 said:
Maybe I missed it...

What does the pressure gauge show when the hose bib is open and running full stream?

And, where is the gauge in relation to the rest of the system?
Click to expand...
The gauge is on the T coming from the pressure tank, next to the pressure switch, and the tank and this assembly is the first "stop" for the water as it comes in from the pump and well, prior to flowing to the softener system, and then the treatment system. The gauge drops to 30psi as the hose runs, then the pump kicks on and lifts the pressure back up to 60psi prior to kicking off.

In my experience, the switch should be set to kick on at 40psi, not 30, and the pressure tank should be loaded with a residual pressure of 38 psi (2psi below pump low pressure setting). I didn't check the static pressure in the tank, and can't easily do that (I'm currently 4.5 hours away geographically). It's a two story house plus full basement, with two baths on the second floor. 30psi is just too low for that situation, no?
 
You mentioned a flow meter. What does that read for GPM with either the hose running or a few faucets turned on in the house?
 
whoaru99 said:
You mentioned a flow meter. What does that read for GPM with either the hose running or a few faucets turned on in the house?
Click to expand...
I can't check, unfortunately.. hours away from the house. The flow meter is more of a "usage" meter, showing how many gallons have flowed through the system. There is a dial with a red hand that gives an indication of rate as you watch the speed of rotation, but no direct indication of gpm. If I was on site, I could of course do the math... time it for 30 seconds and double it, under various conditions... but unfortunately I'm not there.
 
Sounds like the hose is tapped very early in the line, and perhaps its just flowing all that the system can flow, leaving nothing left for the rest of the house.

That secondary system that can't be bypassed may also be a significant flow restriction. If its for contaminates I'm guessing carbon or reverse osmosis, depending on what its removing. RO in particular doesn't tend to have super high flow rates.

May be nothing to be done here other than choking down the hose flow.
 
MuseChaser said:
I'm fairly certain it's not the bladder in the pressure tank; the tank, T, gauge, and switch are all less than a year old. I've experienced failed tanks and bladders before, with the associated erratic pump behavior, and this current situation has none of those symptoms.

I don't know the specifications of the pump that was installed, but the posts pointing to low volume capacity as the culprit make sense. I'll look into it. When the outdoor hose is running, the pump kicks on when the pressure drops to 30psi and does raise the pressure steadily back up to 60 psi prior to kicking off, but it takes longer than I'd expect...maybe a full minute?
Click to expand...
Could possibly need the well bailed and possibly drilled a little deeper
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom