Wharfedale Owners Thread
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Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
Not sure there is, at least nothing I know about. It's a simple matter of physics.... or math... Somethin'... Hell, I don't know.
Have you replaced the caps in speakers yet? If not, there's your cheap fix. Replace the caps in the W70's (Just solder the new ones in place of the old) and just run those. And the same goes for the receiver/amp. If not refurbished, it will likely affect both your tone AND your output quite a bit.
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
I noticed something about my W90's vs other speakers (and headphones) I've heard. Like I mentioned in another post, they have the midas touch with distortion and sonic "artifacts". You hear those warts, but they're somehow reproduced in a smooth, pleasant way. Take my ABKCO "Let It Bleed" LP. The mic-distortion on Mick's vocals as well as the choir on the last track, they don't sound harsh or unpleasant in any way. It's awesome. And the same goes for the natural amp and speaker distortion coming from the guitar rigs. And it's not an issue of the speakers being rolled off. In fact, I can crank the treble way-up on my Fisher, and all it seems to do is reveal more detail without introducing any harshities. The only time it ever sounds harsh is if a record is not tracking properly. It's amazing. Listening to the ABKCO LP is like playing the master tape through the original recording console. And it's not just with the modern ABKCO remaster (It's the same with my London LP, which I only play when I can hear it through the speakers, otherwise I use the Abkco remaster). This happens with ALL music. ALL genres.
I don't know if this is a Wharfedale thing or an alnico thing, but it's QUITE a thing. I guess that's one of the reasons they're so-addicting..
I don't know if this is a Wharfedale thing or an alnico thing, but it's QUITE a thing. I guess that's one of the reasons they're so-addicting..
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Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
Spent more time listening to the W90's. Tried BOTH versions of LIB (the 2003 ABKCO 180g stereo LP and the original US London first pressing), and it's true about early Wharfedales and distortion "artifacts" (vocal-mic distortion, natural tube amp distortion, etc.). That would certainly explain why they're so-flexible, non-fatiguing, and good with so many different types of music. I wish I knew the reason why they are what they are, but it's true. Distortion is not their enemy.
It must have something to do with the tweeters, since the harshest distortions seem to occupy those upper registers, and that alnico Super 3 is the most-non-strident thing I'VE ever heard, that's for sure. It's the king of all smoothies. But it seems like a HARMONIC thing as well. Who knows. But they have a heavy duty addicting quality like nothing I've ever heard. They're like a drug. You leave home, you miss your Wharfies.
Can anybody explain this? I'd love to find the root cause/causes.
One thing's for sure... I've never heard "Let It Bleed" sound more-"right" and more -perfect than it does through the W90's. There is some bad hoodoo-voodoo in those speakers for sure (There's also some bad hoodoo-voodoo in those vintage oil caps... That may be part of it).
It must have something to do with the tweeters, since the harshest distortions seem to occupy those upper registers, and that alnico Super 3 is the most-non-strident thing I'VE ever heard, that's for sure. It's the king of all smoothies. But it seems like a HARMONIC thing as well. Who knows. But they have a heavy duty addicting quality like nothing I've ever heard. They're like a drug. You leave home, you miss your Wharfies.
Can anybody explain this? I'd love to find the root cause/causes.
One thing's for sure... I've never heard "Let It Bleed" sound more-"right" and more -perfect than it does through the W90's. There is some bad hoodoo-voodoo in those speakers for sure (There's also some bad hoodoo-voodoo in those vintage oil caps... That may be part of it).
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Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
I've heard so much good about those things. Would love to have a pair if I could find a way to fit them in next to my W90's (Those have earned a permanent spot in my system... Besides, who the hell wants to move them? ... They weigh 125lbs each).
I love Wharfies... They're a tractor beam of midrange goodness... I wonder how the E** series and other later models are with oil caps... The Briggs-era models are clearly finicky about capacitors and are a joy with oil caps, so I've thought a lot about how the later models might be. I know all the W*** models like them, so I have to think that the tube-friendly E** models would like them as well.
Jgannon just got a pair of alnico W60's, and he just bought some oil caps for them. He'll be in for a surprise. I still need to do MY W60's. I've just been busy enjoying the W90's so-much.
Valvetype
Active Member
They're really nice speakers GT.. I think I'll go further and say that they're my favourites.
I have 12 pairs of vintage speakers now.. Goodmans Magnums,Wharfedale W60d and w30,Celestions,Kef,B&W and so on ...
Whether it's where the E70's live (in the house with wooden floor and furniture) as opposed to the shed (concrete floor tin walls and other 'shed treasure') I don't know ,but they seem to have 'The Sound' for me.. I'm always on the lookout for more E's (E90 maybe ? ) ..
Good to hear from you mate...
I have 12 pairs of vintage speakers now.. Goodmans Magnums,Wharfedale W60d and w30,Celestions,Kef,B&W and so on ...
Whether it's where the E70's live (in the house with wooden floor and furniture) as opposed to the shed (concrete floor tin walls and other 'shed treasure') I don't know ,but they seem to have 'The Sound' for me.. I'm always on the lookout for more E's (E90 maybe ? ) ..
Good to hear from you mate...
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
Ever heard the early W** models with the cone-tweeters? I ask because I always assumed that the E** models were a different sort of animal than that. One thing about the Wharfedales I've heard/owned is that they're good in pretty much any room, as others have also confirmed. Are the E70's the same way?
You mentioned them having "the sound", and that's the way I feel about the early W** models. They're addicting on a level that seems to only be rivaled by the Rudy-era Bozaks. 'From my cold, dead hands', and that sort of thing. I couldn't fathom getting rid of my W90's. I don't care if I'm one step away from bankruptcy. Mine aren't going anywhere, and I imagine Crestwood23 feels the same way (We both put oil caps in ours... And jgannon just bought some oil caps for his alnico W60's, so he's about to experience "the oil cap difference" as well... I wonder how they would do in later Wharfedale models like your E70's... I'm certainly sold on them).
My only problem with my Wharfies? I can't seem to stop playing the Stones' "Let It Bleed". I tried weening myself off, but had another slip-up today.
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Brian
An Old Geezer
Funny you compare the W series with Bozak. I ran Bozak Symphonys for about 12 years and finally let them go but, had a backup with the 302a set. Also have a set of Wharfedale 70s that on the lineup pecking order are the equivalent model.
I have never figured out which I preferred better. I would have thought because my main speakers were Bozak it would influence the decision. As I am downsizing it was time to start getting rid of the larger "small" speakers. This past week I went back and forth between the 302s and W70s as the set to go on the block. Friday I finally settled on letting the 302s go. VERY hard and difficult choice. Advertised them and within hours it was like vultures circling the dead.
Looks like the Bozaks are going to a good home. The buyer has a set of Symphonys he runs with a restored Fisher 400 receiver so he knows what he is getting. He has business for the past 45 years and does professional piano restorations. Interesting to learn about it and dropped my teeth when he told me the price range.
The W70s will be staying for a time. Not sure I can let go of another family member so soon.
I have never figured out which I preferred better. I would have thought because my main speakers were Bozak it would influence the decision. As I am downsizing it was time to start getting rid of the larger "small" speakers. This past week I went back and forth between the 302s and W70s as the set to go on the block. Friday I finally settled on letting the 302s go. VERY hard and difficult choice. Advertised them and within hours it was like vultures circling the dead.
Looks like the Bozaks are going to a good home. The buyer has a set of Symphonys he runs with a restored Fisher 400 receiver so he knows what he is getting. He has business for the past 45 years and does professional piano restorations. Interesting to learn about it and dropped my teeth when he told me the price range.
The W70s will be staying for a time. Not sure I can let go of another family member so soon.
Kyndcookie
Solid Stater
Well, hell. Now you've got me thinking of replacing my newly-installed Dayton caps for PIOs on my W60Es. I love the sound of the new Daytons, but I agree the tweeters are maybe a little hard edged, though I do tend to run the tweet and mid pots hot...
Two questions: I found some 4uf Sprague 600v caps and some 4uf 600v KBGs. From what I can gather the Spragues would be best used on the tweets, the KBGs on the mids, correct? Should I leave the 18uf (25uf in this pic) Dayton as-is?
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
Well, hell. Now you've got me thinking of replacing my newly-installed Dayton caps for PIOs on my W60Es. I love the sound of the new Daytons, but I agree the tweeters are maybe a little hard edged, though I do tend to run the tweet and mid pots hot...
Two questions: I found some 4uf Sprague 600v caps and some 4uf 600v KBGs. From what I can gather the Spragues would be best used on the tweets, the KBGs on the mids, correct? Should I leave the 18uf (25uf in this pic) Dayton as-is?
Well, the early Wharfedales with alnico drivers like my W90's and Brian's W70's are particularly-finicky when it comes to caps. I don't know why, but it's true. That said, I am convinced about the sonic benefits of oil caps. People have used them on Advents and W60E's with great results, so if you've got the right caps to do yours, I would say go for it. I've been thrilled with the performance of my W90's, and a fellow AK'er did his Large Advents, and other members who heard them were saying they were the best-sounding Advents they had ever heard. The oil cap thing is no hype. I can't vouch for the modern ones from Jensen (Denmark), Duelund (Germany, I think), Rike (Germany), and others, but for how expensive they are, you might as well hunt down some vintage ones. Much-cheaper. By the way, the Daytons you used are the same type/quality as the Daytons that were in my W90's (The previous owner had recapped them about 3 years earlier).
Now, when I was seeking out oil cap advice from a fellow AK'er, he helped me find a pair of 1000VDC Sprague "Clorinol" oil caps from the early to mid '60's for the mids. Really-nice ones. Plus, he also found me a pair of 600VDC Sangamo oil caps from the '50's for the tweeters. Also very-nice. He had told me that the mid-woofers were most-important and to put the nicer caps on those. But if you're gonna' do the mids, you might as well throw a pair on the tweeters as well, even if you use a pair of slightly-lower-voltage oil caps on them. If you have ANY vintage, US or Russian-made oil caps from the PCB era that are the right value (the right value in microfarads and the same or higher voltage rating as the original factory caps), then you might as well use them because they will surely sound better than the Daytons. The old oil caps have a combination of smoothness and openness that would fit ANY vintage Wharfedale model very-well.
The Russian KBG's (the NICE Russian ones that were made exclusively for the KGB) are probably on par with the nicest US ones from the late '50's. What tolerance are they? 5%? 10%? If they're 5% or even 2%, then you may want to put them on the mids. But if the Spragues are PCB-era as well and of a similar tolerance, then it probably doesn't matter which drivers you put them on. The old PCB-era oil caps are the best of the best. For whatever reason, that PCB stuff just sounds better apparently. Brian, who posted before you, just did his W70's, and he's thrilled with the results (I'm glad he decided to keep them).
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Brian
An Old Geezer
I just pulled the polys out of my W70s and put in glass encased oils and the speakers went from all but unlistenable because the high harshness to my front runner. The speakers are, as I am finding very responsive to different amps in different ways. Some amps that top my list with other speakers can kill the sound while others that I found not up to snuff with others excel on the W70s. Also, if using ss, low power seems to be the key to get out of the high noise and distortion section of the amp.
While still trying amps, it seems the Yamaha that at low outputs go into Class A may be one of the better choices for me. The CA610II is an amp I want to like but never seem to. The H-K 630 is another I have similar conclusions about and it also is doing quite well. It is more forceful in the presentation, less polite but not discordant nor colored. The Philips 785 underplays the bass a bit too much but betters the bigger Philips receivers. I have not tried the Sonys sufficiently to form an opinion. So, you may need to do some amp swapping to get proper balance and driver integration but, when dialed in as I am finding or re-finding it provides payback. So far I am happy I kept them and sold the 302a instead but, for many the 302 would fit the bill better.
While still trying amps, it seems the Yamaha that at low outputs go into Class A may be one of the better choices for me. The CA610II is an amp I want to like but never seem to. The H-K 630 is another I have similar conclusions about and it also is doing quite well. It is more forceful in the presentation, less polite but not discordant nor colored. The Philips 785 underplays the bass a bit too much but betters the bigger Philips receivers. I have not tried the Sonys sufficiently to form an opinion. So, you may need to do some amp swapping to get proper balance and driver integration but, when dialed in as I am finding or re-finding it provides payback. So far I am happy I kept them and sold the 302a instead but, for many the 302 would fit the bill better.
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
Now that the W70's are recapped, how do you like them in comparison to the 302a's? I ask because the 302a's are VERY-nice speakers, and I anticipated the oil caps raising the stakes quite a bit. When I did my W90's, it was like throwing the "new speaker" switch. Before I did them, I could hear a lot more unrealized potential than what was there with the Daytons.
What I like about my W90's is the way they handle distortion and other sonic "artifacts". For example, the mic-distortion/amp-distortion/tube-distortion/etc sounds smoother and more-pleasant for some reason, which I think might be related to the alnico magnets. Try it with your W70's versus a different pair on some classic-rock from the late '60's to early '70's sometime (like the Stones' "Let It Bleed" or "Sticky Fingers" or an early Zeppelin album, something with the occasional mic-overloading or other sonic boo-boos). The distortion is still there, but it just sounds better and much-more-enjoyable.
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Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
W60's in their element.
.
Those W60's look beautiful, and they're a perfect match for that Fisher. Sweet setup. Great entertainment center/stereo cabinet.
By the way, since you seem to have some room there, you might want to try the W60's placed horizontally. I try to mention this a lot because so many people don't realize that they were designed for that purpose (but can also be used vertically). If you look at the old magazine ads, they showed them that way and the W60's were demonstrated that way at audio shows from what I understand. Whichever way they're placed, the best results are achieved with the tweeters at eye-level (If you place them horizontally, make sure the tweeter is on the left for BOTH W60's... Don't try to mirror-image them... You'll need each cab a good 27" to 30" off the floor for horizontal placement, and you'll want them a lot lower than that for vertical placement, since the tweeter will obviously be in a different spot, but the key is to have the tweeters at eye-level no matter what, and that's how you determine the proper height... Two years of trial & error with my W60E's led me to that discovery, only to see an old advertisement a short time later that could have saved me all that trouble).
Brian
An Old Geezer
Like asking whether I like lobster bisque or New England clam chowder better. Different flavors and both equally satisfying. The Wharfedale are far more amp sensitive. I had forgotten that I ran into this with the W70Ds when I had them in the late '60s. The amps that favor the Bozaks do not do as nicely with the Wharfedale. Happily I have a number that are doing well but the 3 rope contenders in my stock each sound different with them and I have not decided which I prefer, that will time and a bit of going back and forth.
The Yamaha CT610II in Class A gives a nice presentation that reminds me of the W70D with the QUAD II tube power amps. The H-K 630 has more power and presence bit at a slight cost of the liquid presentation of the Yamaha. Between them it almost come down to the environment and personal taste. Right now the H-K in the room takes it by an edge but I think when I move the Yamaha will do better in an environment with neighbors as the pairing at low levels does not collapse as the H-K does. The Sony STR6120 slots in between them; not quite as the attributes of the other 2. Just a decent compromise.
For now I decided to stay with the Sony so I will not go nutty. I have pulled out the Smaller Advents and running them with the H-K on my desk to listen to it further. I was not all that excited with it with other speakers so I want more time with it. The Yamaha has a negative with its speaker terminals. They are made in a manner that does not allow me to hook in my Koss box unless I cit the terminals that I have avoided all these years. If push comes to shove, I will so, it is not a deal killer.
The Yamaha with the W70s have I think the best transition between drivers and reminds me of the KLH Nines. The H-K with them comes closer to the Bozaks with several amps.
The Bozaks did not make me unhappy with the sound of the several other speakers I cycle in and out. The W70s already with 3 amps not enjoying the other speakers hooked up as much as I did. This may be telling, maybe not. Anyway I do not think I will miss the 302as as much or long as I did after selling the Symphonys. Guess the bill of Bozak withdrawal came and went after the Symphonys left.
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
Yeah, I can imagine. That would be a hard sell for me, being from CT (Bozak had one of their shops less than a half-mile from the house where I lived as a kid... Possibly a small distribution warehouse or perhaps there was some final assembly happening there, since it was only a few miles from the local Bozak dealer, but I always remembered the big sign on the building and riding past it on my bike).
For the early Wharfedale W** models, I've found they respond well to musical gear and/or gear with an engaging warmth. But I've heard of some people reporting good results from a few of the more-neutral brands, like with that Yamaha. One thing's for sure, Fishers and Leaks are a no-brainer (Leak was Gilbert Briggs' first choice for the big demonstration events, but apparently Harold Leake turned him down), as is any Quad tube gear obviously, and my W90's responded very-well to an early '60's Radio Shack tube amp that had a pretty-warm sound, but warm and musical has always been my thing.
I'm finding that the classic cone-tweeter Wharfedale sound is going to be very-hard for me to to replace, so these may be it for me. I'll probably just build a collection of Wharfies rather than bounce from speaker to speaker the way a lot of AK'ers do. It's that British Vox AC30/EL84-type sound, which I happen to love. That full-on British alnico bloom like the old blue Celestion guitar speakers. I'll explore other brands here and there, of course, but my W90's are staying for good. In fact, if I ever start talking about it, I'm hoping some of my fellow AK'ers will give me a verbal smack upside the noggin'...
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Brian
An Old Geezer
The first time I heard Wharfedale was at rep's show in Boston sponsored by Lafayette Radio. Biggs was there and was using a set of QUAD IIs, it was my intro to a license affair with QUAD for a number of years. Another set had Leak, cannot remember the model. The Leak could not hold a candle against the QUAD setup. Less thanna year later while still in high school while other guys were looking at car mags and blossoming girls, I was drooling over the typed instructions for my new QUAD amp and preamp. I used them for about 10 years when finally Marantz tube equipment finally became my new love. I never found the Leak tube amps and preamp to turn my keys again the QUAD or Marantz. Considering the prices today and if looking for tubes the Leak would be on the list.
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
I would love an old tube Quad setup, but I can't imagine how they are these days. Leaks are expensive too. I like the super-tidy wiring as well as the look, and the guy with the biggest, nicest Wharfedale collection I've ever seen seems to swear by them (The guy I'm talking about lives in the Far East and has the corner cabs and has even built corner cab replicas complete with the sand-filled baffles). I want to work my way back through the W* series (W2, W3, W4, Airedale) and eventually get a pair of the big omni-directional 3-way corner cabs and a pair of the SFB3's, but that's gonna' take some saving and finding the right deal. Beautiful stuff, it is, the Briggs-era models. He seemed to favor ultra-simple crossovers and woofers running full-range. Briggs liked the bass to roll off naturally, plus the old alnico woofers sounded great that way (Their guitar speakers must have been great).
They had the Super 12, which just had a whizzer and a double-diaphragm, but they also made a true coaxial driver back in those days, and I bet it was really-nice. I'd love to hear a pair those.