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Wharfedale Super 12 Refoam

timbosheen

New Member
Hello all,

I'm having the hardest time trying to track down a refoam kit to fit my Wharfedale Super 12/FS/AL. Does anyone know where I might find the proper kit? I've searched online extensively. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm very anxious to get this thing hooked up to my H.H. Scott model 99D tube amp.

Cheers.
 
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What I took off the speaker was foam. It did have the green felt ring around the edge of the surround. The foam I removed basically turned into a brown powder when I was working with it so it was VERY old. Whether it was original, I don't know but the guy I got it from said everything was. Used to be his mother's.
 
i think the "FS" in super 12/FS/AL stands for foam surround

maybe rick cobb would have something. try him at: rcobb@tampabay.rr.com

I think your right. I guess the CS is the felt surround.


attachment.php
 
Hi Timbo,

I was wondering if you were ever able to find a replacement foam surround for your driver? I'm in the same boat with my new pair. Rick Cobb does not have a suitable replacement.

Biggles
 
rick sent me a foam that is the right size. (you have to carefully remove the green felt strips so the foam can be glued underneath them.)

however, it has a roll --the original did not -- so it is not clear that it will function exactly like the original.
 
Hmmm, well I didn't get that option. It surely won't operate as the original, but at this point, I don't care all that much. If one shows up in the future, I can always redo it, no biggie. Just to get one in there that "fits" is good enough for today!

Biggles
 
Wharfedale Super 12 FS/AL

Wharfedale speakers of that era had odd diameters, especially the W15 which was actually a 13 inch speaker. The effective cone diameter was a little larger tha the avr\erage 12 incher and less than that of an average 15 incher.

That being said, attached is a cardboard ring I use for refoaming Wharfedale 12 inchers. The inside diameter is 240mm and the outside diameter is 296mm. I would recommend using a felt (CS = cloth surround) as it is easier at get. However, Joann's fabric shops have both felt and foam. The foam, unfortunately is a little too thick, about 5.2mm whereas the original foam was about 2mm thick. The thicker foam I have also has a thin cloth backing which is easily removed and should be as this will affect the elasticity of the foam.

Now, to apply the annulus (surround), the voice coil should be shimmed to lock it in position which requires removing the dustcap. The proper height of the coil should be when the spider is flat. If this unit has a phenolic spider, you're in luck as the whole cone and coil assembly is then easily removed.

To remove the dustcap, hopefully the adhesive has deteriorated in time and it will lift easily. If you have to use acetone, use very little. Too much will allow the acetone to get to the apex of the cone and may weaken the coil to cone attachment.

Plastic shim stock should be available from hobby centers. Paper can be used, preferably that which is thicker than 20 pound bond. Inkjet photo paper might work well. The initial shim should be cut about about an inch wide and about 5 inches in length, which will be about a quarter inch shorter than the inside circumference of the coil. It should be thick enough to insert easily and apply a little friction to the moving system. Thinner pieces can be inserted to lock the coil. This locking doesn't have to be rigid; just stiff enough to hold in place while attaching the annulus. If the cone and coil move up or down during this process, it can be brought back to median rest position (flat spider). This is only important when applying the annulus to the frame. The main purpose of the shims is to keep the coil parallel to the pole piece, assuming the spider glue is still holding.

White wood glue is recommends as it takes time to set and mispositioning the annulus can be corrected easily. Let the glue set to the cone before working on the annulus to basket. When dong so, keep the spider flat as well as the annulus. Let the glue set to the point at which it holds on its own, not necessarily dry before applying the green felt gasket. Once the gasket is applied, place a sheet of plywood on it and add a few books for weight. If you're manually dexterous enough, you can flip the speaker with the plywood. Alternatively, you can mark on the plywood, the mounting holes for the speaker, drill them and use machine screws to press it down. With the speaker inverted, you can check the cone to annulus adhesion and apply more glue, best done with a small artist's brush.

Once all is done, don't forget to remove the shims before applying the dustcap. This may sound funny but I've fallen into that one a few times years ago. Prior to that, I placed a small can of grease in a car engine cylinder, just because it fit so nicely and didn't notice it prior to installing the heads. Needless to say, it came very abruptly to my attention when the starter was engaged. :lmao:

There may be some useful info on these pages in my website.
http://www.ln271828.net/wharfedale.html


OOPS. The acquisition of a speaker repair kit may be facilitated now that you have the dimensions of the surround. I believe Parts Express carries them.




Hello all,

I'm having the hardest time trying to track down a refoam kit to fit my Wharfedale Super 12/FS/AL. Does anyone know where I might find the proper kit? I've searched online extensively. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm very anxious to get this thing hooked up to my H.H. Scott model 99D tube amp.

Cheers.
 

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Klipschorn,

You're amazing. I recently stumbled over your web site information, I passed it along to Gang Twanger. He hadn't seen it either. I wish you were closer, I learn better by watching someone else. Not so much from a written description, of course the images do help. I'll have to embark on your journey for making surrounds myself in the near future.

The Super 12 refoam is an easy one, Rick Cobb has the replacements in foam and they work GREAT. But he doesn't have foam surrounds for the Super 8, I haven't asked about the Super 3. I've got an 8 and 3 that need new foam and will need to do them in cloth. Your web site gave me hope that it can be done successfully. I knew it could be done, just didn't have a procedure laid down in my head, yet.

Thank you for your web site, it's a great resource!

Biggles
 
Wharfedale speakers of that era had odd diameters, especially the W15 which was actually a 13 inch speaker. The effective cone diameter was a little larger tha the avr\erage 12 incher and less than that of an average 15 incher.

That being said, attached is a cardboard ring I use for refoaming Wharfedale 12 inchers. The inside diameter is 240mm and the outside diameter is 296mm. I would recommend using a felt (CS = cloth surround) as it is easier at get. However, Joann's fabric shops have both felt and foam. The foam, unfortunately is a little too thick, about 5.2mm whereas the original foam was about 2mm thick. The thicker foam I have also has a thin cloth backing which is easily removed and should be as this will affect the elasticity of the foam.

Now, to apply the annulus (surround), the voice coil should be shimmed to lock it in position which requires removing the dustcap. The proper height of the coil should be when the spider is flat. If this unit has a phenolic spider, you're in luck as the whole cone and coil assembly is then easily removed.

To remove the dustcap, hopefully the adhesive has deteriorated in time and it will lift easily. If you have to use acetone, use very little. Too much will allow the acetone to get to the apex of the cone and may weaken the coil to cone attachment.

Plastic shim stock should be available from hobby centers. Paper can be used, preferably that which is thicker than 20 pound bond. Inkjet photo paper might work well. The initial shim should be cut about about an inch wide and about 5 inches in length, which will be about a quarter inch shorter than the inside circumference of the coil. It should be thick enough to insert easily and apply a little friction to the moving system. Thinner pieces can be inserted to lock the coil. This locking doesn't have to be rigid; just stiff enough to hold in place while attaching the annulus. If the cone and coil move up or down during this process, it can be brought back to median rest position (flat spider). This is only important when applying the annulus to the frame. The main purpose of the shims is to keep the coil parallel to the pole piece, assuming the spider glue is still holding.

White wood glue is recommends as it takes time to set and mispositioning the annulus can be corrected easily. Let the glue set to the cone before working on the annulus to basket. When dong so, keep the spider flat as well as the annulus. Let the glue set to the point at which it holds on its own, not necessarily dry before applying the green felt gasket. Once the gasket is applied, place a sheet of plywood on it and add a few books for weight. If you're manually dexterous enough, you can flip the speaker with the plywood. Alternatively, you can mark on the plywood, the mounting holes for the speaker, drill them and use machine screws to press it down. With the speaker inverted, you can check the cone to annulus adhesion and apply more glue, best done with a small artist's brush.

Once all is done, don't forget to remove the shims before applying the dustcap. This may sound funny but I've fallen into that one a few times years ago. Prior to that, I placed a small can of grease in a car engine cylinder, just because it fit so nicely and didn't notice it prior to installing the heads. Needless to say, it came very abruptly to my attention when the starter was engaged. :lmao:

There may be some useful info on these pages in my website.
http://www.ln271828.net/wharfedale.html


OOPS. The acquisition of a speaker repair kit may be facilitated now that you have the dimensions of the surround. I believe Parts Express carries them.

I'm curious about the Super 12 (and it's brethren) and how they will strike me. I have only owned the 2-way/3-way box designs, more or less. But I'm especially-curious about the Coaxial 12. Is that a horn in there? What would you call that (or did I ask that question already... I had forgotten about this thread. Wharfedale made a rather-smooth-sounding horn in the late '70's, but the Coaxial 12 is the only driver of the classic Wharfedale years that had anything REMOTELY-resembling a horn driver in it, which made me wonder about the sound.

Klipschorn, what did you think of that driver?

I will have some refoaming to do on some '50's Wharfedale drivers myself, FS-era. I want to eventually do corner cabs, but that's way off. For now, I'm addicted to my W90's. I do want to try a pair of FR 12's though, coax or not.
 
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Thank you so much for the compliment. Like you, I learn many things better by watching someone else do it. With regard to speaker repair, I was fortunate in the mid 70's to have met a fella who owned a speaker repair shop.

With regard to the super 8, a felt surround (annulus) may be better if the unit is to be used as a midrange as it dampens the cone motion. Personally, I would much prefer the felt or a stiffer foam for the super 3 as these will dampen not only the cone motion but also any resonances in the annulus. If you've seen the tangential humps in Altec horn driver diaphragm assemblies on the annulus, that's the reason.

Both these speakers are relatively easy to repair, especially some of the 8 inch units which have a phenolic spider held in place with two screws. Using as little adhesive as possible allows one to "fix" mistakes. More adhesive can be applied after all is well.

If you run into any difficulty or want further clarification, all you have to do is ask. I can add to the website pages.

Robert




Klipschorn,

You're amazing. I recently stumbled over your web site information, I passed it along to Gang Twanger. He hadn't seen it either. I wish you were closer, I learn better by watching someone else. Not so much from a written description, of course the images do help. I'll have to embark on your journey for making surrounds myself in the near future.

The Super 12 refoam is an easy one, Rick Cobb has the replacements in foam and they work GREAT. But he doesn't have foam surrounds for the Super 8, I haven't asked about the Super 3. I've got an 8 and 3 that need new foam and will need to do them in cloth. Your web site gave me hope that it can be done successfully. I knew it could be done, just didn't have a procedure laid down in my head, yet.

Thank you for your web site, it's a great resource!

Biggles
 
Thank you for your reply and query. That which appears to be a horn tweeter in the Co-axial 12 is a whizzer cone attached to the plastic assembly and the aluminum diaphragm. The assembly is fixed to the pole piece with a screw and spacers. The screw goes through a hole in the aluminum diaphragm. Once the screqw is removed, the whole assembly can be removed as a unit, with exception of the two wires, which you DON'T want to break. It is a horn assembly although I would have much preferred if Wharfedale had used someting more rigid than paper. Perhaps they used paper to tame what may heve been percieved as brightness.

My first attempt repairing these fellas ended in disaster for one and probably both had I not caught it in time. The adhesive on the coil windings let go and left a mess in the gap. I made another coil but couldn't find enameled aluminum wire in reasonable quantities, so I used copper. C onsidering their age, especially that of the paper, sonic differences between them was negligible. How do they sound? Let me say thisd about that (J.F.K.)

To begin with, how a speaker sounds is very subjective. However, if you like the vintage sound you heard emanating from juke boxes, these will give you that with a little bass boost. Without the boost, they may sound bass deficient to many. In a 6 cubic feet reflex, they'll do well to 40 hz and the bass is smooth and tight. However, a 12 incher going to 5 khz can sound bright to many but that was a common occurence way back when full range speakers were popular.

After repairing the dasmaged coil, The units were tried again in the corner cabinets, bass boost being applied ONLY to the copper coiled speaker. Gave me goosebumps. They sounded like that which I heard in after school soda fountains of the fifties. Buddy Holly was reincarnated.

Now that you've mentioned that horn in the co-axials, I've pulled one off the shelf and will make measurements on that horn to figure out it's flare rate, cutoff, etc, May run a few other acoustical tests on it. Oh, I was unaware that Wharfedale actually made a horn in the 70's; I'll look into that. Thanks form the info. The 12's have been replaced in those cabinets by W15FS units. The bass goes lower but isn't as tight. A friend may have found a source for aluminum wire. Even if it isn't enameled, we have come up with a way to coat it. I'm 73 now and if St. Peter has any ideas of calling on me, He's gonna have to wait 'till I get these co-axials working right.

FR 12's may need a tweeter unless thay have aluminum speech coils. I have a pair here I acquired in the 80's but don't have original cone and coil assemblies. They do have the much larger red magnets. A lot of vintage speakers of the 50's used much the same thin paper for the cones. My idea is to find some on the bay and fit the cones into the FR 12's, with aluminum coil wire and foam annuli.

I had a friend in the 60's who had a pair of W90's and they were awesome. Many today will criticize the midrange and tweeters being mounted in a rectangular chamber (myself included) but they did sound good. Phase response, radiation patterns, internal reflections in tha HF chamber be damned - they sounded good and that's all that matters. And the bass in those puppies was tight. He had a DUAL 1009 TT and a Dynaco PAT-4 preamp coupled to a DYNACO ST-120 power amp. Awesome sound.

Again, a note on vintage speakers. Be careful driving the bass into those old fellas; the adhesives are 50 years old or older. Also, they're usually conservatively rated in the British system as about 15 watts rms., 30 watts peak.

Here's some figures from "A Pair of Wharfedales" They's specs from a 1963 catalogue.

W12 RS Fr=45-50 hz. 15w rms 30w peak
W12 RS/PST Fr= 26-32 hz 15w rms 30w peak (PST = polystyrene, as used in the W90 with a W12RS (roll surround)
Coaxial 12 Fr=26-32 hz 15w rms 30w peak
W15RS Fr=26-32 hz 20w rms 40w peak.

The power ratings from a 1949 spec sheet from the same source are about 30% lower.

Also, if you need any help, piccies and the like, just ask.

Robert




I'm curious about the Super 12 (and it's brethren) and how they will strike me. I have only owned the 2-way/3-way box designs, more or less. But I'm especially-curious about the Coaxial 12. Is that a horn in there? What would you call that (or did I ask that question already... I had forgotten about this thread. Wharfedale made a rather-smooth-sounding horn in the late '70's, but the Coaxial 12 is the only driver of the classic Wharfedale years that had anything REMOTELY-resembling a horn driver in it, which made me wonder about the sound.

Klipschorn, what did you think of that driver?

I will have some refoaming to do on some '50's Wharfedale drivers myself, FS-era. I want to eventually do corner cabs, but that's way off. For now, I'm addicted to my W90's. I do want to try a pair of FR 12's though, coax or not.
 
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I tried to find felt replacement for the woofers in my W90 rebuild project and they were too small. They are sometimes listed as 12 1/2 and I think they are.
 
Thank you for your reply and query. That which appears to be a horn tweeter in the Co-axial 12 is a whizzer cone attached to the plastic assembly and the aluminum diaphragm. The assembly is fixed to the pole piece with a screw and spacers. The screw goes through a hole in the aluminum diaphragm. Once the screqw is removed, the whole assembly can be removed as a unit, with exception of the two wires, which you DON'T want to break. It is a horn assembly although I would have much preferred if Wharfedale had used someting more rigid than paper. Perhaps they used paper to tame what may heve been percieved as brightness.

My first attempt repairing these fellas ended in disaster for one and probably both had I not caught it in time. The adhesive on the coil windings let go and left a mess in the gap. I made another coil but couldn't find enameled aluminum wire in reasonable quantities, so I used copper. C onsidering their age, especially that of the paper, sonic differences between them was negligible. How do they sound? Let me say thisd about that (J.F.K.)

To begin with, how a speaker sounds is very subjective. However, if you like the vintage sound you heard emanating from juke boxes, these will give you that with a little bass boost. Without the boost, they may sound bass deficient to many. In a 6 cubic feet reflex, they'll do well to 40 hz and the bass is smooth and tight. However, a 12 incher going to 5 khz can sound bright to many but that was a common occurence way back when full range speakers were popular.

After repairing the dasmaged coil, The units were tried again in the corner cabinets, bass boost being applied ONLY to the copper coiled speaker. Gave me goosebumps. They sounded like that which I heard in after school soda fountains of the fifties. Buddy Holly was reincarnated.

Now that you've mentioned that horn in the co-axials, I've pulled one off the shelf and will make measurements on that horn to figure out it's flare rate, cutoff, etc, May run a few other acoustical tests on it. Oh, I was unaware that Wharfedale actually made a horn in the 70's; I'll look into that. Thanks form the info. The 12's have been replaced in those cabinets by W15FS units. The bass goes lower but isn't as tight. A friend may have found a source for aluminum wire. Even if it isn't enameled, we have come up with a way to coat it. I'm 73 now and if St. Peter has any ideas of calling on me, He's gonna have to wait 'till I get these co-axials working right.

FR 12's may need a tweeter unless thay have aluminum speech coils. I have a pair here I acquired in the 80's but don't have original cone and coil assemblies. They do have the much larger red magnets. A lot of vintage speakers of the 50's used much the same thin paper for the cones. My idea is to find some on the bay and fit the cones into the FR 12's, with aluminum coil wire and foam annuli.

I had a friend in the 60's who had a pair of W90's and they were awesome. Many today will criticize the midrange and tweeters being mounted in a rectangular chamber (myself included) but they did sound good. Phase response, radiation patterns, internal reflections in tha HF chamber be damned - they sounded good and that's all that matters. And the bass in those puppies was tight. He had a DUAL 1009 TT and a Dynaco PAT-4 preamp coupled to a DYNACO ST-120 power amp. Awesome sound.

Again, a note on vintage speakers. Be careful driving the bass into those old fellas; the adhesives are 50 years old or older. Also, they're usually conservatively rated in the British system as about 15 watts rms., 30 watts peak.

Here's some figures from "A Pair of Wharfedales" They's specs from a 1963 catalogue.

W12 RS Fr=45-50 hz. 15w rms 30w peak
W12 RS/PST Fr= 26-32 hz 15w rms 30w peak (PST = polystyrene, as used in the W90 with a W12RS (roll surround)
Coaxial 12 Fr=26-32 hz 15w rms 30w peak
W15RS Fr=26-32 hz 20w rms 40w peak.

The power ratings from a 1949 spec sheet from the same source are about 30% lower.

Also, if you need any help, piccies and the like, just ask.

Robert

Thanks, for the response, Robert. Lots of very-helpful info there. You nailed the sound perfectly. That old jukebox sound. That's what I imagined those '50's drivers have, not to mention the upfiring Super 3 sound. With Wharfedale's engaging factor added to it, the large-sized models must be like the ultimate stereo jukebox system.

I currently run a Dual 1019 into a 1964 Fisher 800C (Westinghouse 7591's and RCA 12ax7'a), and both share a high level of synergy with old Wharfedales. I don't understand the reason for the free-mounting of the mids and tweeters. Some custom speaker guy did a blog-type article about a pair of W90's he had analysed and modified (Do a google search for "W90 Project", and you should find it at the top of the first page... I think the site was "Tech Speakers" or something like that, related to a technical university somewhere in the US), and he indeed mentioned internal reflections and (I think) negative summation issues (whatever those are), but like you said, the mids and highs in those early W90's are fantastic. That's the best part about them. And Wharfedale mounted the tweeter in a similar fashion, except it has it's own box instead of sharing it with the mids. No baffle, just suspended by those metal rods/bolts inside a little box. The later ones (with ceramic mids and tweets) were baffle-mounted, first in individual mini-baffles and then later to one long baffle for the whole mid/tweeter array.

My W90's got WAY-better after adding the oil caps. The poly Daytons just weren't right, for whatever reason. And going tube really started the ball rolling. They seem to like high-quality amplification of the warm, smooth, and engaging variety. Crestwood23 tried a Marantz 8b with his W90's (which have the alnico mids and tweeters, plus ceramic woofers), and now he's RAVING about it. Says it's his most-addicting setup (and he's got biamped/modified JBL L300's as well as AR9's in his two other systems). So Fisher, Marantz, Leak, and Dynaco tube gear all do well with Wharfedales, and Scott tube models should be good as well. Fisher works for me because the vocals are a bit relaxed, which helps for people with neighbors. Keeps them from being "shouty" (The neighbors, that is ;D ).

So, that Coaxial 12 is indeed a 2-way COAXIAL driver (with a horn)? I had wondered because it would be the ONLY true 2-way alnico driver they ever made (And I don't remember a Coaxial 10 or 8 either... Hmm.. We'll have to keep this on the down low, guys :smoke: ).

Again, thanks for all the info. That old tube-era Wharfedale sound is indeed my mountaintop, and I plan to ultimately amass a collection of maybe 3 or 4 TOTL models from that area, maybe W4's, SFB3's, and the big daddy 3-way corner cabs. I want that old jukebox warmth. The W90's are amazing, but it's different. That's a front-firing speaker, so it's more of a 2ch stereo thing and definitely designed with that in mind. But those older models from the '50's were being sold at a time when mono was still king, and I bet mono stuff is PERFECTION through them. Mono is already great through the W90's (and I have an old Garrard RC88 that I plan to use for mono stuff), but that upfiring Super 3 as well as those rolled-off FR drivers must really give you the full monty, er, I mean mono.

I have that book too by the way. Some great pictures.
 
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BTW, klipschorn, I wanted to make sure you knew about the British Audio section (as you scroll farther down past Speakers and General Discussion). Lots of Wharfedale stuff there.
 
Gang-Twanger

I saw that W90 Project by Tech Speakers in Michigan' One Derek Reeves posted the only comment in which he made reference to the early speaker designers who didn't have the availability of modern CAD programs. In fact, those early designers predated the Theile/Small parameters published around 1972, prior to which speaker analysis was extremely complex to anyone but an electrical engineer. Those folks used their ears. Here's a link to a page in my website that lucidly comments on that. http://www.ln271828.net/note.htm
The link you provided to YouTube doesn't take me to where I think you wanted; it took me to the main page so I did a search for "Wharfedale W90" and found this at the top of what appears to be an endless list, all of which are your posts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGRqISisCmg


BTW, klipschorn, I wanted to make sure you knew about the British Audio section (as you scroll farther down past Speakers and General Discussion). Lots of Wharfedale stuff there.
 
Gang-Twanger

I saw that W90 Project by Tech Speakers in Michigan' One Derek Reeves posted the only comment in which he made reference to the early speaker designers who didn't have the availability of modern CAD programs. In fact, those early designers predated the Theile/Small parameters published around 1972, prior to which speaker analysis was extremely complex to anyone but an electrical engineer. Those folks used their ears. Here's a link to a page in my website that lucidly comments on that. http://www.ln271828.net/note.htm
The link you provided to YouTube doesn't take me to where I think you wanted; it took me to the main page so I did a search for "Wharfedale W90" and found this at the top of what appears to be an endless list, all of which are your posts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGRqISisCmg

You mean the link in my signature? Or a different one? I sometimes have issues posting links on AK. Not sure why. My most-recent stuff on YouTube is under the username GangTwanger2. Just click on the video list, and you'll see it. The demo video in my signature is the 6th one down on that list. The one you linked is an OLD one from way back when I first got them (The receiver I was using wasn't running on all cylinders either).

I agree about lab testing/test results versus using ones ears. They had SOME lab analysis, but nothing like what we see today. The thing is, the guys who came up with those old theories, test results, etc. were VERY-smart guys. But like you said, they were also smart enough to use their ears as well.

I just don't get what the Tech Speakers guy was talking about (BTW, I know the guy who left a comment afterwards... Know him well ;) Don't tell anybody :smoke: ). The supposed issues with the midwoofer and tweeter section are especially-perplexing. I just don't hear it. I'm sure he used the same sort of polypropylene caps that were in mine when I bought them, which DID cause certain issues with my W90's (issues that were instantly-corrected once the oil caps went in), but now, when I read through that blog, I just don't see it (or hear it), and I have that same exact version. And it's not like I'm the only one saying it. I've heard from others who say the same thing, and a lot of them have compared their W90's favorably to some very-serious, game-changing speakers. So, between that and what I've heard with my own ears, it's good enough for me. There's no harshness, freq. bumps, or weirdness, none that I can hear at least. It just sounds right. But as I've said before, I listen to an awful lot of '60's and '70's music. Just my thing, that's all.
 
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