Wharfedale W70 Help

[Basement]

Wharfedale W70s from seller stated circa ~1965 showed up on my local classifieds and I pickeed them up. Apparently these were the seller's father's and overall the cabinets appeared to be in great condition - minus a chip in the leg and small tear out at the rear base of one of the cabinets. The seller briefly demoed them to me and then told me that one speaker was bad. He believes it was the 8" mid and went so far as to include 2 replacements (Chinese non equivalents, I'm not inclined to use them). Given that he apparently fixes speakers himself, this should've been a warning sign that something was not stock.

Regardless I purchased them and today I went ahead and opened the cabinets to do my investigation. Here is what I found:

IMGUR ALBUM (with labels, measurements quick estimate but I could be corrected - not sure what variant I have).

Speaker 1: On listening, no overt abnormalities except maybe mid quieter than I expect.

Opening it up, apparently stock tweeter. Did not open box but shining light shows a tanish colored cone.

8" mid seems to work but seems quiet. I know I should've removed it from the circuit but wanted a quick test; Ohmmeter reads around 20 ohms (in circuit, while music was playing..). Dust cover is somewhat translucent with a screen door effect and cone is black/green. "78" is marked on the magnet.

12" speaker still has Wharfedale frame but surround is foam and a square magnet is labeled "1990" in blue marker.

Speaker 2: On listening, scratchy/intermittent mid.

Opening it up, apparently stock tweeter. Did not open box but shining light shows a tanish colored cone.

8" mid has one of the leads to the voice coil with tinsel "patched" with an additional break that I tested with an ohmmeter and seems to remain continuous. 8" doesn't work unless I retract/depress on the cone - then it sounds pretty good and more powerful than that of the other 8". Cone is a lighter green/tan, back side of surround and cone was notably chalky. Dust cover is completely opaque. Again, quick test while everything in circuit; ohmmeter reads 23-30.

12" has a round magnet, labelled made in England, and a cloth surround. Marker says "90". Terminal strip attached to tweeter box is a little janky.

Overall I feel misled as I didn't realize they had been touched so much; I'm not sure what exactly is going on here. My question for all of you is what is stock, what is not, and what needs replacing to get these sounding stock/working? Not even sure where to find some of this or how to approach fixing it...

For reference, $100 got me:
-W70s with stands
-Harman Kardon HD400 CD player with Mariah Carey in the tray
-Harman Kardon CD91 tape deck with pirate Spice Girls
-Denon DRA-545R receiver with the ability to run A+B, remote included
-JVC QL-A200 quartz direct drive turntable with cartridge and a "MR b" stylus - not sure what to replace this with. Thoughts?
->50 records mostly classic rock and the vinyl itself appears to be in good condition. Lots of John Denver/Billy Joel with the additional McCartney, Beatles, but also included some Elvis.
-Dubious wires
-A bottle of Old English

 

[RxDx]

8" mid has one of the leads to the voice coil with tinsel "patched" with an additional break that I tested with an ohmmeter and seems to remain continuous. 8" doesn't work unless I retract/depress on the cone - then it sounds pretty good and more powerful than that of the other 8".

Replacing the tinsel might fix that driver.

Overall great deal, though.

 

[quiet]

I remember the sound of my W70's fairly well. A pair of W70d came along and the W70's left. The W70 used good drivers. But, the woofer and mid ran full range and the mid had no isolation box. I personally don't think the box is to small for the woofer.
I do think the W70d sounded much better. But I did change out the failure prone tweeter. The substitute soft doom was maybe better but the reason for the change was the problem tweeter. You don't have that tweeter. Although yours doesn't perform as well as the W70d blow up tweeter, it's a good tweeter.
I think the W70 with stock drivers could be as good as the rest of the W70? series, but attention should be paid to the rest of them for improvement ideas that could be applied to the W70 three driver speaker.
In other words, they had the right tata, but the wrong hoho. And fixed it later in the series. But also got carried away and put 4 drivers in the box.
As to the condition of yours, yep, you got some sorting to do. Used drivers are common and the price is reasonable. If you know where your going it may be worth it. If one of my drivers failed I would replace it.
You may not be thrilled if you put it back to stock. A little tuning might put it over the top. They can be capable and rewarding speakers. And some people rave about the sound. I think they sound very good.

 

[Basement]

Replacing the tinsel might fix that driver.

Overall great deal, though.

Thanks! I went ahead and tried to fix the tinsel. Difficult to do. The heat on the tinsel started burning the paper cone. Regardless it worked and fixed the problem for a time but then failed again. Guess I'll have to order proper tinsel?

Still doesn't explain the weak sound in the other speaker. Will have to take it out I guess.

I remember the sound of my W70's fairly well. A pair of W70d came along and the W70's left. The W70 used good drivers. But, the woofer and mid ran full range and the mid had no isolation box. I personally don't think the box is to small for the woofer.
I do think the W70d sounded much better. But I did change out the failure prone tweeter. The substitute soft doom was maybe better but the reason for the change was the problem tweeter. You don't have that tweeter. Although yours doesn't perform as well as the W70d blow up tweeter, it's a good tweeter.
I think the W70 with stock drivers could be as good as the rest of the W70? series, but attention should be paid to the rest of them for improvement ideas that could be applied to the W70 three driver speaker.
In other words, they had the right tata, but the wrong hoho. And fixed it later in the series. But also got carried away and put 4 drivers in the box.
As to the condition of yours, yep, you got some sorting to do. Used drivers are common and the price is reasonable. If you know where your going it may be worth it. If one of my drivers failed I would replace it.
You may not be thrilled if you put it back to stock. A little tuning might put it over the top. They can be capable and rewarding speakers. And some people rave about the sound. I think they sound very good.

Any tips for improving the sound? Once I get the mids figured out what should I do next?

 

[quiet]

They made so many changes that improved the good W70 speaker that I wouldn't know where to start. I believe most if not all the info you need is here at AK.
I've long suspected that a corrected 3 driver W70 would be the hot setup. I think that 4 drivers in my W70d is to many drivers.
It appears that there is room for improvement in the crossover. Are your woofer and mid running full range? I don't see that as good. And back covering the mid driver is a common thing.
I like my W70d, and think it's better than the W70 I had at the same time. But I hear to much of something going on with the W70d. Between 100 and 1000 hz. So to copy the W70d is not the answer. It's a busy speaker.

 

[CopperWizard]

Get a tube amp.

 

[bigaltx24]

Get a tube amp.

+1 on the tube amp. Also do a recap, I highly recommend Mundorf Evo Oils.

 

[Basement]

They made so many changes that improved the good W70 speaker that I wouldn't know where to start. I believe most if not all the info you need is here at AK.
I've long suspected that a corrected 3 driver W70 would be the hot setup. I think that 4 drivers in my W70d is to many drivers.
It appears that there is room for improvement in the crossover. Are your woofer and mid running full range? I don't see that as good. And back covering the mid driver is a common thing.
I like my W70d, and think it's better than the W70 I had at the same time. But I hear to much of something going on with the W70d. Between 100 and 1000 hz. So to copy the W70d is not the answer. It's a busy speaker.

Searching for mods I can't seem to find anything. Should I redo the crossover? Add a port? I have no idea where to begin here. I just know that I need to fix this tinsel in speaker 2 and I'm convinced speaker 1's mid is also too quiet. If I'm looking at a replacement, what is a typical price to pay?

I'm still not sure how to feel about the mismatched 12" drivers.

Get a tube amp.

+1 on the tube amp. Also do a recap, I highly recommend Mundorf Evo Oils.

They'll be paired with Dynakit ST70 I just finished going through. Still need to finish the PAS2 as there is an unresolved hum but beyond that it should be ready to go. Best place to get oil capacitors? When I recapped my Sansui SP200s I just used whatever cheap films were available.

 

[Drugolf]

Okay, well, this is pretty typical of what can happen with these. Wharfedale was very inconsistent with their production at times and with a 1965 version, it may be that they were purchased at 2 different times thus the slightly different compliment of drivers etc. I have a set of W70 that are the exact same on the outside but different internally. Plus it sounds like some repairs have been done. The good thing is that Wharfedale pieces are typically readily available although sometimes hard to match. Especially the mids. Measurements in circuit tell us very little if anything so disconnect everything to measure. And a recap is needed it sounds like. Plenty of posts on them here and over in the British sound section.

 

[quiet]

At this point I would replace the needed parts. I think the speakers do justify that. Sounds like a pair of mids. If the woofers sound the same with all other drivers disconnected they can stay?
No, don't port the speaker.

 

[bigaltx24]

I bought mine thru Madisound. I used the Evo Aluminum Oil on the tweeter and Russian KBG caps for the larger caps on my W70Ds. I tried some of the Dayton MPCs that I had laying around when I first got the W70Ds. Listened to them for a while, then after reading a post by Gang-Twanger, decided to go with PIO caps. Big improvement over the Daytons. Check the British Audio Forum here, there's a thread just for Wharfedales. I haven't seen Gang-Twanger post in quite some time but he was the resident Wharfedale expert.

 

[Basement]

Alright followup from today - appreciate your thoughts.

Speaker 1: Mid reads 7-8 ohms. Seems weaker than speaker 2 as I can stop it from vibrating. Notably, This may be due to the woofer on the right being different and causing the other to vibrate/act as a reflex? Regardless I think this mid is good.

Speaker 2: I think this is a voice coil problem? Mid seems to work and reads appropriately on speaker INcursion but EXcursion of the cone causes an open circuit. I verified this was not due to the tinsel (remove it entirely). So does this basically guarantee I need a new mid?

 

[quiet]

#2
Well, it don't sound good. I'll bet it goes dead in no time. And requires a surgical repair to fix it.

 

[Basement]

Alright, I'll be on the lookout for a new mid. Not sure how much money I want to put into these. Is it worth it to recap and so on? Comparatively, which would any of you prefer, the wharfedale 70s or my grandfather's sansui sp200s?

Also, what do I do with the dying mid? I have it disconnected and since the speaker still runs full range to the woofer it still sounds alright.

 

[quiet]

Those are very nice cabinets. Logical coarse of action would be to put it the driver situation back to factory condition and go from there. May not need caps. Probably does.
I haven't had the sp200 in years. Didn't like it. But do like the w70. Completely different sound, and quality.

 

[telejunky]

I'm a fan of the W-70C. It's a 3way, with the Super 3 and has a full crossover with two inductors and two caps. It's also not ported so the bass is very tight and accurate. Putting a pot over the midrange (ala Bozak) make a huge improvement in clarity. I use a circular food storage bin of the right size and line it with some cotton.

You can add these mods to a W-70, and plugging the port would be optional.

To me, an accurate reproduction of instruments and voice is most important, and Wharfedales with the Super 3 do this very well.

 

[quiet]

Maybe that's the 3 way cure for my 4 driver W70d.

 

[Basement]

I'm a fan of the W-70C. It's a 3way, with the Super 3 and has a full crossover with two inductors and two caps. It's also not ported so the bass is very tight and accurate. Putting a pot over the midrange (ala Bozak) make a huge improvement in clarity. I use a circular food storage bin of the right size and line it with some cotton.

You can add these mods to a W-70, and plugging the port would be optional.

To me, an accurate reproduction of instruments and voice is most important, and Wharfedales with the Super 3 do this very well.

So I have 3 drivers, no port, and here is the crossover:
https://i.imgur.com/K5AKNw9_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Any thoughts? Not sure what I'm looking at exactly. I'd love to see pictures of the inside of your cabinet! If I were to build a mid box out of mdf, what size would I use?

Running them without the speaker 2 mid driver.have some unknown vibration and the occasional tinniness/tweeter buzz I have to figure out but sounds pretty good. Overall bassier and less directionality than the sansuis. Also, does anybody happen to know the capacitor values? I forgot to check when I opened the cabinet and can't find them online.

 

[telejunky]

Yes, yours is the better crossover. Do you have the gray cone midrange? One of mine had a little rattle but rotating it 180 degrees stopped the rattle. One other thing I've done on all my wharfedale woofersis to used the butyl sealer used on klh and ar woofers. The wharfedale woofers were supposed to be sealed with this sort of sealer when new.

The W-90 sales literature discusses this sealer on the woofers. Both of my early W-90's were sealed when new but the sealer was pretty much gone. Sealing with the buytl makes a big difference in bass response. Because wharfdale shipped the raw drivers and parts to the US, Canada, and Hong Kong to be installed in locally made cabinets, I'm guessing the sealing of the woofers was left to be done at final assembly and it was often skipped. Maybe 1/2 of the woofers I've seen appear to have been originally sealed.

I'll try to get pics of the inside of my w70's in a day or so.

 

[CopperWizard]

I'm a fan of the W-70C. It's a 3way, with the Super 3 and has a full crossover with two inductors and two caps. It's also not ported so the bass is very tight and accurate. Putting a pot over the midrange (ala Bozak) make a huge improvement in clarity. I use a circular food storage bin of the right size and line it with some cotton.

You can add these mods to a W-70, and plugging the port would be optional.

To me, an accurate reproduction of instruments and voice is most important, and Wharfedales with the Super 3 do this very well.

For the record the research I've done says the 70(c) version is ported , has a 10" mid that runs full out.