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Wharfedale W90 Questions

PastTechFan

Super Member
Tomorrow I'm going to look at some W90s. From the photos, they appear to be early ones. They have split backs, one side is vented with slots. No labels, or placard as I understand some of the later ones do. The old funky UK pin connectors (1/8 bananas?)

I understand these have the red alnico magnets, on the LF drivers anyway. (I'm hoping they're ALL paper cone alnicos.) I'm told that one woofer may be dead (and I'm wondering what kind of replacement I might need to get). These are rear loaded though, without removable grills.

Does anyone know whether the early models had one of the "foam-filled" woofers per cabinet? Or did that only come later? Was the foam-filled one mounted in the vented side or the other? Bottom line, is there any way I could identify one of the foam-filled from the back, or do they look the same as the other?

Can anybody tell me what the difference in sound is between the two models of woofer?

Thanks, Keith
 
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Thanks for pointing out that thread. I'd read it before, but not as closely as I might have. GangTwanger's post was one of those that got me lusting after Wharfedales in the first place. (Then I got my W60s!) Lotsa good info!

Even so, some mysteries remain-

At post 20, Kfa888 shows a few different cabinets. From the front, the "foam-filled" ones look to be on the right. I think this is the vented cabinet (slotted back).

There's a pic of the speaker in his "slot loaded bin" (looks like a ceramic magnet), and the guess that the "flat disk is on the front of the other woofer". Looking at the thread again, I'd bet the one in that pic is actually the "flat disk" one.

Mysterious. I'll try and report back after looking today.
 
Brung'em Home!

Just got back with my "new to me" 90's! (pics are sellers)

Great transaction with a nice guy. Not a steal, but a good deal. Both sides happy. Also heard my first Magnepans (with a massive homebuilt sub-woofer). WOW! Driven by (I forget what, with 260 watts)! I have NEVER heard such realism. What a soundstage!

OK, back to MY two beauties. Cabinets are perfect. Tiny flaw in the cloth on one. Looks like a very fine burlap (almost like a sea grass). Oh yeah, as described...one woofer is out (voice coil is lunched).

They still sound great! I hardly heard the absence of the driver in the gimpy one. Turns out the dead woofer is a foam filled one (with red banded alnico magnet). And yes, props to kfa888 -he supposed right (I guessed wrong), the foam filled lives in the solid backed bin of this pair, not the slot vented one.

Can't wait to get these set up in their new home. Both of them are still in the car. (I love my Ford Fusion, drop the back seats, and it thinks it's a F150, all wheel drive too!) Must wait til son-in-law visits tomorrow to get these in the house.

I've got the dead woofer, and a line on a regular cone 12" alnico. Seller thinks the foam plate (plug?) could be cut out of the old cone, and glued into another. I've never even re-foamed(!)

Think I'll get the woofer and just install it first, see how it sounds. Probably not exactly balanced with the other one, but maybe close enough to start.

Soon I'll be posting like GangTwanger!
 

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Very nice.
I had been looking at (lusting after) these for weeks.
But i already have too many large speakers and not enough room.
And I love my Altecs's.

The original listing price was more than 2x what you paid.
You did get a good deal, despite the dead LF driver.
I was guessing that the problem was a dead cap in the crossover .

Glad an AK'er got them.

Enjoy!



Art
 
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Just got back with my "new to me" 90's! (pics are sellers)

Great transaction with a nice guy. Not a steal, but a good deal. Both sides happy. Also heard my first Magnepans (with a massive homebuilt sub-woofer). WOW! Driven by (I forget what, with 260 watts)! I have NEVER heard such realism. What a soundstage!

OK, back to MY two beauties. Cabinets are perfect. Tiny flaw in the cloth on one. Looks like a very fine burlap (almost like a sea grass). Oh yeah, as described...one woofer is out (voice coil is lunched).

They still sound great! I hardly heard the absence of the driver in the gimpy one. Turns out the dead woofer is a foam filled one (with red banded alnico magnet). And yes, props to kfa888 -he supposed right (I guessed wrong), the foam filled lives in the solid backed bin of this pair, not the slot vented one.

Can't wait to get these set up in their new home. Both of them are still in the car. (I love my Ford Fusion, drop the back seats, and it thinks it's a F150, all wheel drive too!) Must wait til son-in-law visits tomorrow to get these in the house.

I've got the dead woofer, and a line on a regular cone 12" alnico. Seller thinks the foam plate (plug?) could be cut out of the old cone, and glued into another. I've never even re-foamed(!)

Think I'll get the woofer and just install it first, see how it sounds. Probably not exactly balanced with the other one, but maybe close enough to start.

Soon I'll be posting like GangTwanger!

:D

Oh man, sorry I missed this yesterday (I got stuck in General Audio Discussion last night and couldn't get out).

Cool score. Can you see what tweeters are in them? If they have the Super 3 cone-tweeter, then they are W90C's (*EDIT* - Wrong... If they have alnico woofers, then they are W90's/W90B's... Must have been tired that day *EDIT*). If they have the purple dome ones with that black donut thing on the front, then they are W90D's. Should be able to shine a flashlight in there, I would think. Either way, I think you're gonna' love these. Mine have really-opened up over the past two months. They keep sounding better and better.

Regarding the styrofoam-cone woofer, I remember reading somewhere about the styrofoam one being a slightly-better performer, for what it's worth. One woofer handles the upper-bass and the other handles the lower. I have a W90C brochure on my computer that I believe says which woofer handles which. I'll take a look and see if I can post it. I believe I saw one of those styrofoam ones on Eek!bay recently. Same guy who sells lots of old Wharfy drivers.

Okay, I'll have to get back to this in a few. I gotta' eat something. Starving right now.
 
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Here's the W90C brochure. Different-shaped cab, but they used several different cabs for these...

attachment.php


Yours look like they have different grillcloth than mine (The cloth on mine is the same stuff they used on the original W60 model when it was first introduced... More-textured). Mine have smooth back panels on both sides of the enclosure, plus the ports are directly-above the woofer as opposed to being closer to the middle like they are on yours (and possibly kfa888's). Also, they have the same grillcloth as the 1960-introduced W60 model, so I figured mine must be the first-generation version. But I haven't opened the back panels yet (I'm afraid to... Don't want to jinx it). Sixcats had told me that they just had two regular alnico W12's, so I didn't bother checking. I need to find an old magazine ad for the first-generation W90's and see what it says. The W90C and W90D both have the 4-way setup with the split bass, but I think mine is just a kind of dual 3-way setup. I still don't quite-understand the venting thing on the later ones. I'm not exactly well-versed in sub-enclosure design. I'm still not even sure what a bandpass enclosure is. The dual-mid/tweeter array really puts out some sound. Very-detailed. Up front when it needs to be, but also laid-back.

The W90's sound so-good (Listening as I type). They can be perfect for so-many things... like mid '70's disco at 2:30AM, or Jethro Tull on a Saturday morning, Beatles on a Sunday morning, or the Dead when you're stoned outta' your gourd at 4:21PM on a Monday afternoon, or some Hendrix while you're catching the first rays of the new rising sun. It doesn't matter. They're good anytime.

Speaking of Hendrix, I guess I haven't listened to "Band Of Gypsys" in a long time (not since well-before I got the W90's, and before I bought the HRT dac). Wow, does this sound different. Boy, if you ever wanted to "get" Hendrix, these are the speakers for it. God, I wish I had them back in the early '90's when I was all over this album. Oh well, I can always get all over it all over again. This really brings me back...

*EDIT* - According to the brochure above, the styrofoam-cone woofer (polystyrene, to be exact) handles the low-bass while the regular W12 handles the upper-bass frequencies. That sub-cabinet is great. I had heard there's a sand-filled panel in between the two woofers (although I haven't cut these apart to find out), plus the back panels are definitely sand-filled as well. I've been reading/re-reading that Briggs biography this month, and cabinet-construction was definitely a high priority, as was driver-design and integration. For how much they charged for their speakers, they definitely gave customers their money's worth. The truly-amazing part is that Gilbert Briggs started the company with no formal relevant training (Back during the depression, he was laid off after working in the textile industry for 20 years, so he completely-reinvented himself as one of the true pioneers of loudspeaker-design... Pretty-incredible when you think about it... The guy was a super-genius).

I just took a good look at the mid/tweeter array on mine. Very-interesting to say the least. The front of the mid/hi enclosure is OPEN. No baffle. And the drivers are set back a bit from the woofer-baffle below them, and each driver mounted to metal rods on both sides, which I assume are connected to some sort of rear-baffle for the upper-compartment. Not sure if they gave it a sand-filled panel or not, but it would make sense (to cancel out any reflections). I wish I had an original factory diagram of the entire design of that first W90 version, inside and out. It would sure clear up a lot. Also, I think mine might also have two different woofers (My cabs are both ported though... Two ports on the front and no slots on either back-panel). It's hard to shine a light through the thick grillcloth to see, but I can only spot a dustcap on the left woofer. The right one just looks black and vague across the whole thing, just like the friggin' monolith from "2001". **EDIT**
 

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Ohm Question

Thanks to all for the responses. It was a happy transaction.

I've heard from the guy with the spare woofer, so that's coming along. I'll report further once I get these things in the house later today.

In the mean time, I've been wondering if there might be an ohm issue with replacement driver. On the bay, I see a lot of different Wharfedale 12 inchers, with different ohm rating. All the way from about 4 to 16.

From the ad Gang-Twanger posted, I understand the "system impedance" is said to be 4-8 ohms. Since the W90s run two per cabinet (or "consolette"), does anyone know how the twin woofers were wired? 4 ohm in parallel, 16 in series.... or what?

If my new replacement doesn't match my other ones, could I just put a resistor in the circuit to adjust the load?

Thanks, Keith
 
Thanks to all for the responses. It was a happy transaction.

I've heard from the guy with the spare woofer, so that's coming along. I'll report further once I get these things in the house later today.

In the mean time, I've been wondering if there might be an ohm issue with replacement driver. On the bay, I see a lot of different Wharfedale 12 inchers, with different ohm rating. All the way from about 4 to 16.

From the ad Gang-Twanger posted, I understand the "system impedance" is said to be 4-8 ohms. Since the W90s run two per cabinet (or "consolette"), does anyone know how the twin woofers were wired? 4 ohm in parallel, 16 in series.... or what?

If my new replacement doesn't match my other ones, could I just put a resistor in the circuit to adjust the load?

Thanks, Keith

Someone else just got a pair of W90's recently. I'm having trouble remembering who it was, but I think the thread was titled "Sandy Or Not", relating to a question he had about the sand-filled cab (Try googling using that thread title along with "Wharfedale W90"... Should be able to find it, and maybe you can ask him about the wiring and all that). The one thing I'm really-not sure about is whether or not the first-generation W90's have the upper and lower-bass frequencies divided like with the W90C and W90D (I tend to think not, but I haven't seen any brochures for the version that I have).
 
If you look on Google Images, there should be an ad for the W90D as well (The ad I'm referring to looks somewhat-similar to the W90C one I posted). That might have some of the specs you need.

By the way, you said you picked up a pair of W60's? Are they the earlier, 2-way, ported ones like I have? Or are you referring to one of the W60C, W60D, or W60E versions? That original W60 really-impressed me. Some of the sweetest mids, highs, and upper-bass I've ever heard (certainly from a speaker that size). Great jazz/blues/funk/classical/classic rock/pop speaker for sure. It's only real weakness is the rolled-off low-bass. The original W90 doesn't have that problem. It's like two W60's in one cab with mid-drivers added. Plus, it doesn't have the weak low-bass like the W60. For a British speaker from the early '60's, these things get nice and low, surprisingly. And you'll be surprised at the dynamic-range and transient-response. Lots of snap.
 
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Thanks to all for the responses. It was a happy transaction.

I've heard from the guy with the spare woofer, so that's coming along. I'll report further once I get these things in the house later today.

In the mean time, I've been wondering if there might be an ohm issue with replacement driver. On the bay, I see a lot of different Wharfedale 12 inchers, with different ohm rating. All the way from about 4 to 16.

From the ad Gang-Twanger posted, I understand the "system impedance" is said to be 4-8 ohms. Since the W90s run two per cabinet (or "consolette"), does anyone know how the twin woofers were wired? 4 ohm in parallel, 16 in series.... or what?

If my new replacement doesn't match my other ones, could I just put a resistor in the circuit to adjust the load?

Thanks, Keith


I was poking around on the net this afternoon (and listening to the Lenny Kravitz debut... Love that album), and I stumbled onto an old magazine review that was recapping a recent hi-fi trade event back in 1965, and Wharfedale apparently had introduced a line of "Expandules" where W60-owners (other models too) could use these Expandules with their W60's to upgrade to a bigger speaker system (The W60 looks to slide inside the Expandule enclosure, very-much the way the sub enclosures are designed on the W90's). According to the ad, the Expandule comes with a bigger woofer, so I wonder if the Expandule for the W60 used a 15" one. Anyway, I wanted to mention it before I forgot. Here's the text from the article:

"Wharfedale offered a solution
to the audiophile's problem of whether
to buy a bookshelf system now and trade
up later, or to hold off until he can afford
a larger system; Wharfedale's W30, W40
and W60 speakers can be upgraded by
slipping them into the appropriate
"Expandule" unit, which incorporates
a larger woofer and crossover network
to extend the range of the original
speaker."

Here's a picture of the ad... Not the best quality, but the best I could find:
$(KGrHqJ,!ocE63(l+L!nBO4ibD(8bg~~60_12.JPG
 
Happy Times!

Well, (with help) I've got them in the house and singing. Wow!

My wife wasn't too impressed with their size, and having to rearrange furniture. But the sound has won her over. Love these things. All thanks to AK for steering me in the direction of W90s.

Here they are. NOT ideally placed, but we're looking to move in next 6-8 months, and now we know we need to allow room for them.

I hope to get the other woofer this week, and then I'll open both up for a look see. (Put a meter on the woofers).

As for mids and highs, I can't see anything through the grill cloth. Open the back top only shows the crossover. Must remove yet further panels to get at the speaker array.

Will report re the woofers etc. later.

-Keith
 

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Update

Well, I've put the replacement woofer in the (ported) cabinet.

I'll attach a few pics. First of, to answer Gang-Twanger's earlier question, I believe mine are an early pair of W90s, though no serial numbers (or any tag or placard info). Anyway, mine have the twin woofer bins, and High and Low bass woofers.

Based on the period ads, the Low bass is supposed to be handled by the one with the "polystyrene radiator" disc. Mine have'em. Just now however, I've put the open cone ("15 ohm") replacement in there. Getting LOTSA bass now. New unit really pumps it out!

The woofers are in parallel. Haven't checked the ohm rating on its partner. Should I place a resistor in this if the mate is 8 ohm?

It was interesting to see that the port is lightly stuffed with some sort of fabric. My 2way W60's have similar port tubes, but nothing inside.

Opened up the top panel to see the crossover, but can't see the values on the caps. I'll open the other one tonight or tomorrow.
 

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Well, I've put the replacement woofer in the (ported) cabinet.

I'll attach a few pics. First of, to answer Gang-Twanger's earlier question, I believe mine are an early pair of W90s, though no serial numbers (or any tag or placard info). Anyway, mine have the twin woofer bins, and High and Low bass woofers.

Based on the period ads, the Low bass is supposed to be handled by the one with the "polystyrene radiator" disc. Mine have'em. Just now however, I've put the open cone ("15 ohm") replacement in there. Getting LOTSA bass now. New unit really pumps it out!

The woofers are in parallel. Haven't checked the ohm rating on its partner. Should I place a resistor in this if the mate is 8 ohm?

It was interesting to see that the port is lightly stuffed with some sort of fabric. My 2way W60's have similar port tubes, but nothing inside.

Opened up the top panel to see the crossover, but can't see the values on the caps. I'll open the other one tonight or tomorrow.

Very-cool. Looks like you have either W90B's or W90C's (I would say yours are from '65 or '66, if I had to guess... Mine are from the first year they made them, I believe...The ports are directly-above the woofers whereas yours have each port off to one side of the woofer). I wonder what's going on with that inner-rear-baffle thing inside the upper-enclosure. Could it be sand-filled like the bottom baffles? On my W90's, the mid/tweeter array has no front-baffle. I hadn't noticed until recently. It's all open in front, and the drivers sit slightly-back from the sub-enclosure's baffle. Each driver is mounted to metal rods (each of them maybe 1.5 or 2 inches long) on either side, and the rods are mounted to that inner-rear-baffle. Very-strange. I imagine yours have this too (I think Briggs did something similar in the way he mounted the mid in the SFB3 model... Kind of reminds me of what they did with the Dahlquist DQ-10). You have the W90 version with the slots on the back (on one side of the sub-enclosure). Mine don't have ANY slots at all on the back. And yet yours came with 2 alnico woofers (Each of the two sub-enclosures in yours are tuned to a different frequency, if that's any help... Not sure about mine). I also think that mine may have the styrofoam woofers on one side. I shined a flashlight up against the grillcloth, and I see a difference between the two woofers in each cab. Hard to see through the thick cloth they used on mine, which seems like it could be even thicker than yours.

I love these things. The drivers have such an open sound to them. It's like a "wall of soundstage" when you get in front of them. These are decent around-the-house speakers, but the real magic happens up in front. And there is no shortage of bass (That's one of their best qualities).

So, those are paper-in-oil caps in there, I assume? The big silver things are the caps, right? That crossover looks incredibly-simple considering it's a 4-way speaker. Simple or not, they must have done something right because the separation between instruments is nothing short of incredible. Nice to know that they put the crossover up top. I was worried about removing the bottom and top rear panels for fear of the crossover being attached to it the way it is on some of their speakers (Didn't want to yank any wires loose).
 
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Long Story short.....

Past month has been crazy. Had to relocate my office. Dust has almost settled. Christmas now. Hope to dig further into both cabinets later in the week, with pics.
 
Here's the W90C brochure. Different-shaped cab, but they used several different cabs for these...

attachment.php


Yours look like they have different grillcloth than mine (The cloth on mine is the same stuff they used on the original W60 model when it was first introduced... More-textured). Mine have smooth back panels on both sides of the enclosure, plus the ports are directly-above the woofer as opposed to being closer to the middle like they are on yours (and possibly kfa888's). Also, they have the same grillcloth as the 1960-introduced W60 model, so I figured mine must be the first-generation version. But I haven't opened the back panels yet (I'm afraid to... Don't want to jinx it). Sixcats had told me that they just had two regular alnico W12's, so I didn't bother checking. I need to find an old magazine ad for the first-generation W90's and see what it says. The W90C and W90D both have the 4-way setup with the split bass, but I think mine is just a kind of dual 3-way setup. I still don't quite-understand the venting thing on the later ones. I'm not exactly well-versed in sub-enclosure design. I'm still not even sure what a bandpass enclosure is. The dual-mid/tweeter array really puts out some sound. Very-detailed. Up front when it needs to be, but also laid-back.

Dammit, these sound good (Listening as I type). They can be perfect for so-many things... like mid '70's disco at 2:30AM, or Jethro Tull on a Saturday morning, Beatles on a Sunday morning, or the Dead when you're stoned outta' your gourd at 4:21PM on a Monday afternoon, or some Hendrix while you're catching the first rays of the new rising sun. It doesn't matter. They're good anytime.

Speaking of Hendrix, I guess I haven't listened to "Band Of Gypsys" in a long time (not since well-before I got the W90's, and before I bought the HRT dac). Wow, does this sound different. Boy, if you ever wanted to "get" Hendrix, these are the speakers for it. God, I wish I had them back in the early '90's when I was all over this album. Oh well, I can always get all over it all over again. This really brings me back...

*EDIT* - According to the brochure above, the styrofoam-cone woofer (polystyrene, to be exact) handles the low-bass while the regular W12 handles the upper-bass frequencies. That sub-cabinet is great. I had heard there's a sand-filled panel in between the two woofers (although I haven't cut these apart to find out), plus the back panels are definitely sand-filled as well. I've been reading/re-reading that Briggs biography this month, and cabinet-construction was definitely a high priority, as was driver-design and integration. For how much they charged for their speakers, they definitely gave customers their money's worth. The truly-amazing part is that Gilbert Briggs started the company with no formal relevant training (Back during the depression, he was laid off after working in the textile industry for 20 years, so he completely-reinvented himself as one of the true pioneers of loudspeaker-design... Pretty-incredible when you think about it... The guy was a super-genius).

I just took a good look at the mid/tweeter array on mine. Very-interesting to say the least. The front of the mid/hi enclosure is OPEN. No baffle. And the drivers are set back a bit from the woofer-baffle below them, and each driver mounted to metal rods on both sides, which I assume are connected to some sort of rear-baffle for the upper-compartment. Not sure if they gave it a sand-filled panel or not, but it would make sense (to cancel out any reflections). I wish I had an original factory diagram of the entire design of that first W90 version, inside and out. It would sure clear up a lot. Also, I think mine might also have two different woofers (My cabs are both ported though... Two ports on the front and no slots on either back-panel). It's hard to shine a light through the thick grillcloth to see, but I can only spot a dustcap on the left woofer. The right one just looks black and vague across the whole thing, just like the friggin' monolith from "2001". **EDIT**
I was the fellow that posted under "Sandy or not"...lol and am presently talking to you privately!
That brochure pic you posted is my pair exactly !Mahogany Table-Tops I 've been told so I assume mine are W90 C's as picture but from what year again? And as far as info from me about them I really don't know squat except that they sound awesome
 
Past month has been crazy. Had to relocate my office. Dust has almost settled. Christmas now. Hope to dig further into both cabinets later in the week, with pics.
Have you found any dates chaulked on the backs of cones or the codes on the potentiometers to try dating your W-90s? I have the same models as Gangtwanger with the cabinets constructed of plywood with no pressboard, the grill cloth is very different from yours and the wood cross pieces over the grill cloth on mine measure 7/8 inch thick and appear to be some type of fruit wood.
 
Have you found any dates chaulked on the backs of cones or the codes on the potentiometers to try dating your W-90s?

Hi JT,

Sadly, I have not (yet). But I may get into the cabs again in the next few weeks. The speakers sound great!, but the 16 ohm open cone woofer has always nagged at me a little. I'd like them factory spec.

I've got a line on a pair of 8 ohm 12" drivers (alnico) for a good price. And I think I'm going to try and put the styrofoam plug from my dead woofer into one of them. That will mean cutting the dead one up, but the VC is shot anyway, or there's junk in the gap (can't get into it cuz of the styro). I'll check into both then, and let you know.

I do recall on my W60's finding chalk dates that looked like Sept '63. (Those are ceramic mags.) But that doesn't help with dating the 90s.
 
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