John I have to agree the market for the audio equipment we have has shrunk to a very small fraction of what it was in the 1970s and 1980s and something has to give, it was either price or quality for many mfgs to stay in buisness. Comparable new equipment is either much more exspensive or not as well built, I'd hazard a guess that the market has shrunk to less than 5% of what it was back in the 70-s/80s. The majority of todays audio equipment is digital, MP3, earbuds and throw away.
What happened to linear tracking?
- Thread starter hbucker
- Start date
lico
Super Member
Misleading? I qualify my claims with IME - in my experience. In theory you are most likely correct, but in real world practice and in my setups the little linear tracking SL-5 picks up far less vibrations and acoustic feedback than any of my straight S arm pivot tables, some which have more heavily damped plinths and bases. Why is that?
As for IGD, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize having tangential alignment to the groove all the time makes common sense. There might be other problems introduced by LT, but it isn't alignment.
I have been reading this thread with interest. One of these days I will have to pick up a nice linear tracker. I have always heard they do a good job of reducing inner groove distortion. I do not have much inner groove distortion on my current turntable. It would be interesting to compare it with a linear tracking turntable. The technology behind linear trackers is complex, but I find it amazing.
phildoc
Well-Known Member
The market has not only shrunk its also changed. Most people who are going to invest into something other than a iPod are probably going to go the surround sound route. Only a small percentage are going to invest into a dedicated two channel system. When I first got back into audio that's what I did. I bought a Yamaha RX-V1, a DVD player that also was decent at audio, and the top Infinity Interlude surround speakers. Not the best, but even that retailed for what was for me a big chunk of change. Going vintage was much easier on the wallet.
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Lico: Not sure how you can argue you don't have to align cartridges in linear tables -- in actual fact, you probably should align them even more exactingly than in pivoted arms since if the stylus isn't exactly on the radius perpendicular to it, it will be misaligned all of the time (unlike the pivoted arm, which like a stopped clock, will probably be correct at some point).
Of course you might be talking about the many P mount linear arms, which of course don't need to be aligned, but then neither do any of the P mount pivoted arms.
And if you are going to say that the error introduced by misalignment of a linear arm is inaudible, I think you have to also agree that the error of a correctly aligned pivoted arm is inaudible also.
And speaking from my experience, aligning linear arms can be a very difficult procedure unless you have the correct alignment gauge, which often is now missing. Many linear tables won't let you drop the stylus on a stationary platter, which means you have to plug and unplug the turntable to do so, which is a major hassle. And the claim that you just position the stylus on the top of the spindle is impractical (most built in arms won't go that far) and wrong, since it would misalign the cartridge since the arm inscribes an arc, not a straight line when it rises to clear the spindle.
The Mitsubishi LT 30 I had was originally supplied with a neat plastic sheet that fit over the spindle and was held against the plinth so that you could have the platter moving under it and align the stylus on the radius from the spindle -- accurate, and easy, but its complexity is part of the territory with linear tables. (The handwritten bayonet stub to stylus distance seen in the Vinyl Engine manual is actually 1 mm off, since it either includes or excludes the rubber washer, but I don't doubt that plenty of users haven't actually checked the setup to see if its correct (because of the difficulty of doing so). So their tables are actually misaligned. I don't doubt that they sound just fine, but I'm guessing that reflects the inaudibility of small errors, which applies to pivoted arms also).
Of course you might be talking about the many P mount linear arms, which of course don't need to be aligned, but then neither do any of the P mount pivoted arms.
And if you are going to say that the error introduced by misalignment of a linear arm is inaudible, I think you have to also agree that the error of a correctly aligned pivoted arm is inaudible also.
And speaking from my experience, aligning linear arms can be a very difficult procedure unless you have the correct alignment gauge, which often is now missing. Many linear tables won't let you drop the stylus on a stationary platter, which means you have to plug and unplug the turntable to do so, which is a major hassle. And the claim that you just position the stylus on the top of the spindle is impractical (most built in arms won't go that far) and wrong, since it would misalign the cartridge since the arm inscribes an arc, not a straight line when it rises to clear the spindle.
The Mitsubishi LT 30 I had was originally supplied with a neat plastic sheet that fit over the spindle and was held against the plinth so that you could have the platter moving under it and align the stylus on the radius from the spindle -- accurate, and easy, but its complexity is part of the territory with linear tables. (The handwritten bayonet stub to stylus distance seen in the Vinyl Engine manual is actually 1 mm off, since it either includes or excludes the rubber washer, but I don't doubt that plenty of users haven't actually checked the setup to see if its correct (because of the difficulty of doing so). So their tables are actually misaligned. I don't doubt that they sound just fine, but I'm guessing that reflects the inaudibility of small errors, which applies to pivoted arms also).
Nice deck, but hard to find, I've been looking for one for ages. Is that the P202C with upgraded stylus on it?.
HI wlmill,
I have been using linear tracking arms since 1974. I had two servo types (B&O 4004 and Yamaha PX-2) and then the Eminent Technology ET-2 air bearing arms since 1990. I am a big advocate of linear tracking and especially air bearings.
Only recently have I started to use a pivoted arm again, a Graham 2.2 Deluxe unipivot arm on my third turntable. The other two have the ET2.5 air bearing arms.
I have made many positive claims for linear tracking but the lack inner groove distortion was not one of them. While it's true that my linear arms do not have inner groove distortion, I also have zero IGD with the Graham. I did not have inner groove distortion even before I switched to linear arms. Prior to them I had a SME 3009 arm and with the Shure V15 series cartridges I never had inner groove distortion.
I'm very inclined to think that the arm geometry has little to do with IGD. Either geometry can be excellent in this regard.
You should NEVER have IGD, period. If you do, something is wrong and should fix it now!!
Sparky
lico
Super Member
I am. My only experience is with a P mount.
I wasn't going to say that. With a linear tracking P mount, the error introduced by alignment is nil. With a P mount on a pivot arm, there is always going to be alignment error at the end of a record.
Once again I point to the benefits of what a LT was designed to solve - alignment error.
Now.... let's take a look at what a SL-5 offers in terms of feature set compared to your standard budget audiophile deck these days. I'm talking macro level features most consumers would want, as opposed to what the demanding audiophile may want.
Fully automatic/ease of use. Check.
Quartz lock. Check.
Specs. Nearly as good as the SL-1200, better than any budget audiophile belt drive. Check.
Footprint. It's the size of a record. Check.
P mount cartridge options. Sounds good with a $20 AT, you can add a Microline stylus still if you want better. Check.
Alignment error. None. Check.
Retro cool factor/technical innovation. It's not a manual platter with a rubber band wrapped around it. Check.
Reliability. It's 30 years old, so if it breaks harder to fix than a pivot arm deck. But you can find them in working condition for about $100 and replace. Check.
Once again - if I could buy one new, I'd be a buyer. New turntable manufacturers expect you to want less, not more. Kind of backwards I think.
50mm.
oiseaux
Retired peacock
I wish I would have bought a straight line tracker from the very beginning of my 60 years of collecting... I could have avoided all of the clicks, scratches and damage that happens too easily when you aren't paying strict attention to your finger ( or your cat).
Your results may vary.
Cheers!
Your results may vary.
Cheers!
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
Remove the cat from the equation and you will be pleasantly surprised. At least, involving delicate things around your home.
My daughter ripped the needle off my Audio Technica AT20sla, but I didn't get rid of her. Some things are worth the hassle, even some cats.
Pio1980
AK Member
That;s what I'm using on you prior rec, I just wondered about Nat's reference point on his comment.
986s
Active Member
No, it has a P23...
Pio1980
AK Member
For your situation, I would recommend the Revox Linatrack, fully correctly refurbished and properly set up with an appropriate 'P' mount cart of choice. This would not be an inexpensive option. Otherwise some other reburbed fully automatic upper-end-of-line LT of good quality. The Linatrack would definitely have the friendliest ergonomics for you giving a very good sonic result.
I have a refurbed H-K ST-7 set up for 'P' mount looking for a home but it's not my first recommendation for a sight-impaired user, tho not an impossible option.
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Lico: I actually assumed you were speaking about P mounts, but your statement as written wasn't restricted to them, and my other point was that it can be difficult to align standard cartridges if you don't have the original alignment tool, and that some of the advice people offer (center of top of spindle) won't result in zero error.
Its clear from this thread that some of the posters doubt the audibility of inner groove distortion, or the distortion that pivoted arms suffer from. I don't know that I agree with them.
It is clear that people differ in their tastes, and not everyone using a linear table will want a pmount cartridge, so alignment is an issue for linear tables just as it is for pivoted arms.
My memory is that the LT 30 uses a 50mm stylus to bayonet distance, but the VE diagram is labelled 49mm. Since most people have the rubber washer on, if they include it, they will be misaligned.
Its clear from this thread that some of the posters doubt the audibility of inner groove distortion, or the distortion that pivoted arms suffer from. I don't know that I agree with them.
It is clear that people differ in their tastes, and not everyone using a linear table will want a pmount cartridge, so alignment is an issue for linear tables just as it is for pivoted arms.
My memory is that the LT 30 uses a 50mm stylus to bayonet distance, but the VE diagram is labelled 49mm. Since most people have the rubber washer on, if they include it, they will be misaligned.
flavio81
Turntable technician
It's almost the same cartridge.
It's pretty straightforward measuring the stylus to collar distance on a linear tracker with a removable headshell. I use a micrometer, but a standard alignment gauge can be used too.
I agree on the difficulty of using a template with some LTs. It's very difficult with the LT-30. On the other hand, it's easy with the PL-L1000 since the carriage can be moved around by hand.
The HFN test record has a nice alignment template. A strobe disk can also be used since they have crosshairs in the center that can be extended.
I agree on the difficulty of using a template with some LTs. It's very difficult with the LT-30. On the other hand, it's easy with the PL-L1000 since the carriage can be moved around by hand.
The HFN test record has a nice alignment template. A strobe disk can also be used since they have crosshairs in the center that can be extended.
Hi,
the only time I seem to have inner groove distortion, is when I listen to a worn record. I do hear some of the high frequencies drop off when I get to the end of a record, but I have an understanding of why this occurs. After getting back in to vinyl, I had to get use to this again. You are right, one should not have to liv with inner groove distortion. This is something I would not tolerate.