What is Hi End and What's not in Pioneer Turntables ?

PETRELITO

PETRELITO

New Member
Hi Everybody !
i wish to know wich Pioneer Turntable is Hi end ?
It begins in PL Series ? Wich ? Pl 400 ? Pl 560 ?
Pl 630 is Low or Hi End ? I need Help
I am buying some turntables from Pioneer and i need to Know
Yesterday i can read on a old post here about Pioneer PL 112 D
Some users says IS GOOD but not hi End
I understand that Hi End means good construction quality ? or The weight?
or if it is DD ?
Thanks !!
:thmbsp:
 
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My understanding of Hi End is that the product is at the Hi End in terms of price. Now, sometimes a high price equates to better build quality, better design, more substance, but not always.
 
If by High-End you mean units like VPi´s, Clearaudios, SME´, Goldmund, Thorens Reference, Michell Orbe, Nottingham Analogue, just to name a few, then I´d say very few Pioneers, if any, ever were High-End.

There were, however, quite a few models from Pioneer that were just downright excellent at more down to earth prices, though most were mainly for the Japanese market.

Check out these from vinylengine.com:

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/album_showpage.php?pic_id=2298
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/album_showpage.php?pic_id=3103
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/album_showpage.php?pic_id=3108
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/album_showpage.php?pic_id=3096
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/album_showpage.php?pic_id=3094
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/album_showpage.php?pic_id=3093

Your PL-630 is very highly regarded. Your PL-560 ( just like mine ) is a very nice MOTL model.
 
While I hate to disqualify things as low, mid or Hi-end in general I would say no mass market direct drive table is going to come close to a humble well made belt drive model. A decent turntable should have a good amount of isolation on platter (tapping on table should not easily transmit to the speakers) should have some weight to it....tho thats a slippery slope as a table doesnt have to be super heavy to be good, and some pretty hefty tables are crap. A better table should have a solid platter of some sort and not a flimsy hollow frisbee, most tables of lesser quality also come with weak performing arms further limiting good performance, not to mention a cartridge that probably does more harm to a record by just dragging across its fragile surface. From Rega, to Project, NAD, Music Hall and countless older models it doesnt take a huge amount to do FAR better than any table in the Pioneer line up. When think of a company that focused on making every single medium of playback gear and even video its not hard to understand quality is not going to be there..............nobody does everything right.
 
chadnliz said:
While I hate to disqualify things as low, mid or Hi-end in general I would say no mass market direct drive table is going to come close to a humble well made belt drive model. A decent turntable should have a good amount of isolation on platter (tapping on table should not easily transmit to the speakers) should have some weight to it....tho thats a slippery slope as a table doesnt have to be super heavy to be good, and some pretty hefty tables are crap. A better table should have a solid platter of some sort and not a flimsy hollow frisbee, most tables of lesser quality also come with weak performing arms further limiting good performance, not to mention a cartridge that probably does more harm to a record by just dragging across its fragile surface. From Rega, to Project, NAD, Music Hall and countless older models it doesnt take a huge amount to do FAR better than any table in the Pioneer line up. When think of a company that focused on making every single medium of playback gear and even video its not hard to understand quality is not going to be there..............nobody does everything right.
Click to expand...

without picking this whole post apart....have you EVER seen, or heard, any of Pioneer's tables from the 70's?Your comment re:mass produced direct drive turntables sort of gives a clue, but I figured I ought to ask first.
 
Yes I have seen heard and owned a table from Pioneer............you need to read closer before you open your mouth or wiggle your fingers, I SAID IN GENERAL, I never said it was an across the board truth or that Pioneer never had made a good table.
 
OK, I'll go down my pioneer list; these are models I own.
PLS-30 low end, light weight. Belt drive.
PLA-35 was probably mid range when new; once I got the mechanicals straightened out it sounded very good to me. Belt drive.
PL-518 great table. Direct drive.
PL-520 sounds very good, was probably mid-to-high range, weird anti-skate mechanism that I hope to never have to fix. Direct drive.
PL-250 was probably lower end because it's very basic and pretty small, but weighs a ton and sounds very good. Belt drive.
PL-600 second series. Black plastic piece of crap.
Hope some of this helps. Best one out of the lot is the 518 followed by the 520.
 
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Hi there

Hi friends from Audiokarma
Thanks for your solid coments
In the middle of this thread, i was a winner of a bid for a Pioneer PL 516
My god... meanwhile i was reading your posts i was looking on Google for technical information and detail for this one
It is with belt drive !!!! but looks pretty good to me.... belt drive is not a good system for a nice turntable? I have DD most, but i will not use it for DJ work,, simply i am a Pioneer Collector !!!
Kisses to everyone of this site and thanks !!!!:yes:
 
TJLitt said:
without picking this whole post apart....have you EVER seen, or heard, any of Pioneer's tables from the 70's?Your comment re:mass produced direct drive turntables sort of gives a clue, but I figured I ought to ask first.
Click to expand...

Fret not TJ.. without being a wordsmith, I read the tone, and not the actual arrangement of the words, and I gained the same impression, and if you assume that high end is a useful method of ranking something, then certainly Pioneer made at least 3 tables that merit the title " possibly the best turntable ever "

Cheers

George.
 
chadnliz said:
Yes I have seen heard and owned a table from Pioneer............you need to read closer before you open your mouth or wiggle your fingers, I SAID IN GENERAL, I never said it was an across the board truth or that Pioneer never had made a good table.
Click to expand...
I just reread your first post carefully and nowhere did you mention that you had owned a Pioneer.

chadnliz said:
From Rega, to Project, NAD, Music Hall and countless older models it doesnt take a huge amount to do FAR better than any table in the Pioneer line up.
Click to expand...
Than ANY table in the Pioneer lineup? You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
 
PETRELITO said:
Hi friends from Audiokarma
Thanks for your solid coments
In the middle of this thread, i was a winner of a bid for a Pioneer PL 516
My god... meanwhile i was reading your posts i was looking on Google for technical information and detail for this one
It is with belt drive !!!! but looks pretty good to me.... belt drive is not a good system for a nice turntable? I have DD most, but i will not use it for DJ work,, simply i am a Pioneer Collector !!!
Kisses to everyone of this site and thanks !!!!:yes:
Click to expand...
It's fine. Enjoy it! :music:
 
tigertiger said:
Fret not TJ.. without being a wordsmith, I read the tone, and not the actual arrangement of the words, and I gained the same impression, and if you assume that high end is a useful method of ranking something, then certainly Pioneer made at least 3 tables that merit the title " possibly the best turntable ever "

Cheers

George.
Click to expand...


Yup, I read that the same way too. I do believe the whole "Belt drive is better than Direct Drive" and vice versa has been kicked to death. I will say Pioneer has several table that I would pick over the mentioned Rega, MM. Pro-ject. But thats just me of course :D
 
I don't understand the argument that because a company made many things besides turntables, that the quality wouldn't be there. Pioneer had a lot of cash to throw around in the day. And 'a lot of cash' is what many smaller, boutique brands lack. A big brute of a company could, before the days of serious cost cutting, buy it's way into a lot of know how. I think a lot of tables, like the Technics 1200 and maybe some of the bigger Pioneers, don't get respect because they aren't boutique brands. But the fact is, I doubt the smaller companies could have designed the 1200. Matsushita dropped a ton of cash on that family of TTs. A lot of very sound engineering went into some of these DD turntables, and it's why some of them are still being made today. I would guess Pioneer did the same thing with their late '70s decks. They aren't perfect, but they aren't slouches (not that anybody said they were).

I'd put my PL-570 against a Music Hall (up to a certain point..their upper tier is pretty nice).

It really depends on what you're looking for. I have a PL-570, but my main turntable is a belt drive Systemdek. The Systemdek has a bit of an edge sonically over the Pioneer, but it is not that drastic and only really apparent in my main system, where the higher end electronics call attention to it.

I don't make 'hi end' or 'lo end' distinctions, just good and bad and the PL-570 is, in my opinion, a very good turntable. Worth owning if you find one in your budget.
 
PETRELITO said:
Hi Everybody !
i wish to know wich Pioneer Turntable is Hi end ?
It begins in PL Series ? Wich ? Pl 400 ? Pl 560 ?
Pl 630 is Low or Hi End ? I need Help
I am buying some turntables from Pioneer and i need to Know
Yesterday i can read on a old post here about Pioneer PL 112 D
Some users says IS GOOD but not hi End
I understand that Hi End means good construction quality ? or The weight?
or if it is DD ?
Thanks !!
:thmbsp:
Click to expand...
Your PL-630 was part of the Spec series--probably the best sold in the US that came with an arm. Your PL-560 was just under it that same year (1978). The PL-400 was from 1979--not quite as well built as the previous year, but still decent. The top model that year was the PL-600 (the s-arm version). Remember that the position in the Pioneer lineup was based on drive type and amount of automation. So the highest model from 1976 on was always quartz direct drive full auto, and the lowest was belt drive and manual. The DDs had better speed and noise specs, but in general, even the lower models in the lineup were decent. Many models in the same lineup shared the same arm design. The top models also included features like VTA adjustment.

John mentioned his PL-570. That was the top model in 1976 and I echo his remarks about it.
 
I just realized I said I don't make 'hi end' or 'lo end' distinctions, right after I said my main system had higher end electronics.

I will quietly sit in the corner and laugh at myself now.
 
Well.. since no one has answered the real question.. within the Pioneer tables made, the PL-570 was really nice, the 550 was pretty decent, The PL-71 wasn't real cheap, and neither was the PL-55DX (I own one of the 55's)

The PL-90 was a hell of a great and scarce table.. There are many others too.. I know some may call some of the above mid-fi, but back when they were sold, they were considered hi-fi, and some of the better pioneer tables..
 
The PL-516 is the belt drive version of the PL-518. Sometimes these models have problems with the rubber grommets that hold the feet. Other than that, you should be very pleased with it.
 
chadnliz said:
Yes I have seen heard and owned a table from Pioneer............you need to read closer before you open your mouth or wiggle your fingers, I SAID IN GENERAL, I never said it was an across the board truth or that Pioneer never had made a good table.
Click to expand...


not trying to pick an Internet fight. It was YOU who listed a bunch of decent, but not startlingly great brands and suggested any of their turnables would exceed ANY(your word choice) Pioneer. You are incorrect, IMO. I asked whether you had any experience, as you seemingly dismissed the whole lineup with the phrase "mass-produced direct drive". I apparently wasn't the only one who read it as rather dismissive......and, I read the post a closely as I could without smacking my mug into the monitor.:rolleyes:
By the way, you also suggested that "cheaper tables" would have an unusable cartridge. You realize, of course, that cartridges can be changed?
One of the fun things for many of us, is finding very, very decent turntables on the used market. With a few tweaks, some rewiring, and the right cartridge, I would venture that many older, used turntables(Pioneers, Yamahas, countless others) can trash many of the modern products out there. Further, many of those older models work perfectly well as is, with no more than a new stylus or cartridge added to the package.....:music:
 
I shouldnt have worded things the way I did, I did not mean to dismiss the entire line-up and the tables I mentioned were low cost quality models in current production, I didnt mention ever owning a Pioneer table in my first post nor did I mention any other tables I owned, For whoever said 3 tables from Pioneer may be listed in a best ever made line up..........thats a stretch.
I am not going to get drawn into a large arguement, I was talking in general and noted my errors so attack if you wish but I have a life to live.
 
Only Pioneer table available in north America would be, in my opinion, the PLC-590. Lots of nice tables otherwise, but the 590 was special.
As long as it has a good arm, of course....
 
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