What would a turntable upgrade get me?

[JohnnieO]

I have been considering a new TT and just wondered what the advantages would actually be.
Currently I have a Pioneer PL550 that has been re veneered fully serviced and has a 2M Blue cartridge.and looks beautiful. It holds its speed rock steady and to me sounds great. I have looked at the VPIs the Technics 1200G and Linns. All 3K and over. But other than eye candy what improvements in sound quality will I be getting? Isn’t all the sound quality coming from the cartridge and phono pre? Assuming the speed is perfect.
Would it be better to just upgrade the cartridge and phono pre and keep what I have??

 

[TomD62]

The conventional wisdom that I have heard is it is better to have and average cartridge on a very good turntable than a very good cartridge on an average turntable. I recently upgraded from a 1970's Technics SL-1300 with different cartridge options (Empire 2000 E/III, Ortofon 2M Blue,...) to a new SL-1200G with a Hana ML cartridge and the difference is not subtle. This should not really be a surprise considering the lineage of both the table and cartridge. All cables and preamp were the same. This combination is extremely quite and so far the sound is sooo much more enjoyable. Only have about 10 hours on the stylus so time will tell if the difference improves or not.

Another major improvement is the sound stage is much wider with the 1200G / Hana combination.

This is just me but I did not care for the sound signature of the Ortofon 2M Blue and sold it on BT. I preferred the Denon DL-110 over the Blue. Not sure what phono stage you have but this may be your first area of improvement. Or not.

 

[gizzyman47]

Every component in the audio chain is important and contributes to the quality of the sound. If you upgrade your table to a very nice one, then you will want a nicer cart/phono amp to realize the potential of the new table.

Are you using a receiver or separates? If using a receiver, that may be the weak link as far as the built in phono stage. You could get a stand alone phono amp of higher quality and connect to the receiver for an improvement.

If using separates, a better phono amp is a good choice also. A cart upgrade would benefit too. You could dip your toes into the word of Moving Coils. Your phono amp would have to be able to support a MC cartridge.

All this depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go and how much money you're willing to part with.

Sound quality is a strange thing. You never really realize what your missing until you hear better sound. Sometimes the difference is large sometimes not. Seems that the higher up in the audio chain you get, the smaller the increase in sound you achieve with the money spent.

 

[DavidTT]

I'm not familiar with your turntable but in my experience as turntables get better they (1) get quieter to the point that they operate with silence even with your ear right next to the platter/arm and with the platter turning, and (2) the tonearm is very low friction and adjusted such that it is well behaved and creates utter quiet in lead in and lead out grooves. The best turntables, once past the initial 'click' of stylus drop in, are just inky black quiet and then the music jumps from that quiet. Then there is the subjective pleasure of using the machine, which is something each one of us will feel different about.

If you already have what I describe above, any changes will come because you are bored or itching for a change. Some hobbyists struggle to leave well enough alone, me being one of them.

As machines get 'better' you'll see a couple of things. First, they start to employ ever more interesting/heavy/exotic materials and structures. Their makers will also publish increasingly 'fancy' specs, things like W&F <.025, which may make no real difference beyond a particular threshold. You'll see 25+ pound platters, different types of main bearings, multiple motors, longer tonearms, and on and on. Their prices will start to make your eyes water and you're right to note that high-end machine prices have exploded in the last couple of years.

It's your call as to whether to make the change and how far to take it. For myself, I first found that eerie quiet when using a Rega Planar 6. It settled into my main system for years and then more recently the hobby bug bit me again and I felt compelled to try the U-Turn Orbit Theory (made in US, a company I love). The Theory has no business being compared to the P6 but I absolutely love it and find it too creates the eerie quiet from which music erupts. Its tonearm is excellent and I find the machine a joy to use. It's settled into my main system, the P6 is in its box on a shelf, and off I go.

 

[vinylkid58]

Isn’t all the sound quality coming from the cartridge and phono pre?

No, not all of it.

Would it be better to just upgrade the cartridge and phono pre and keep what I have??

That's probably what I would do. What's the rest of your system, phono stage etc?

jeff

 

[TomD62]

I'm not familiar with your turntable but in my experience as turntables get better they (1) get quieter to the point that they operate with silence even with your ear right next to the platter/arm and with the platter turning, and (2) the tonearm is very low friction and adjusted such that it is well behaved and creates utter quiet in lead in and lead out grooves. The best turntables, once past the initial 'click' of stylus drop in, are just inky black quiet and then the music jumps from that quiet. Then there is the subjective pleasure of using the machine, which is something each one of us will feel different about.

If you already have what I describe above, any changes will come because you are bored or itching for a change. Some hobbyists struggle to leave well enough alone, me being one of them.

As machines get 'better' you'll see a couple of things. First, they start to employ ever more interesting/heavy/exotic materials and structures. Their makers will also publish increasingly 'fancy' specs, things like W&F <.025, which may make no real difference beyond a particular threshold. You'll see 25+ pound platters, different types of main bearings, multiple motors, longer tonearms, and on and on. Their prices will start to make your eyes water and you're right to note that high-end machine prices have exploded in the last couple of years.

It's your call as to whether to make the change and how far to take it. For myself, I first found that eerie quiet when using a Rega Planar 6. It settled into my main system for years and then more recently the hobby bug bit me again and I felt compelled to try the U-Turn Orbit Theory (made in US, a company I love). The Theory has no business being compared to the P6 but I absolutely love it and find it too creates the eerie quiet from which music erupts. Its tonearm is excellent and I find the machine a joy to use. It's settled into my main system, the P6 is in its box on a shelf, and off I go.

I have never heard the U Turn Orbit Theory. It is THAT good? If so, that is a lot of bang for relatively short buck.

 

[JohnnieO]

I’m

No, not all of it.


That's probably what I would do. What's the rest of your system, phono stage etc?

jeff

I’m using a vintage Pioneer PL550 with a 2M Blue into a vintage Pioneer SA 8800 integrated used as a preamplifier. It has all the cartridge load and MM MC adjustments and a Pioneer SG9500 EQ into a Odyssey Kismet amplifier feeding JBL L5 speakers

 

[DavidTT]

I have never heard the U Turn Orbit Theory. It is THAT good? If so, that is a lot of bang for relatively short buck.

I've been very happy with it but have no idea how it would compare with something like the vintage Pioneer you own. I'm a bit against the grain of many AK posters though, who tend to adore Technics machines and hate Rega. I'm a bit surprised the thread hasn't already seen multiple posters advocating that you get a new Technics.

I will say that U-Turn is not only made in the US, they source most of their components from US suppliers. They offer genuine hardwood (not veneer) plinths and their Gen2 machines are truly excellent IMO. Inverted main bearing, one-piece magnesium tonearm, electronic speed control, height-adjustable isolated feet, all engineered in house. They offer a range from an entry-level model for less than $300 to the Theory, just under $1,000.

FWIW, they are belt drive including a belt running around the circumference of the platter and the head shell is not removable, so not for those who want/need removable head shell or who dislike belt drive of this type.

Last but not least, and very important to me, they also directly support their offerings and an email to them will almost always be answered same day by one of the owners of the company.

 

[jrtrent]

I have been considering a new TT and just wondered what the advantages would actually be.
Currently I have a Pioneer PL550 that has been re veneered fully serviced and has a 2M Blue cartridge.and looks beautiful. It holds its speed rock steady and to me sounds great. I have looked at the VPIs the Technics 1200G and Linns. All 3K and over. But other than eye candy what improvements in sound quality will I be getting? Isn’t all the sound quality coming from the cartridge and phono pre? Assuming the speed is perfect.

Stereophile's budget cartridge survey (a variety of cartridges now in the $50-200 range) of a few years ago (available online as Gramophone Dreams #44) was interesting in that a $9000 turntable/tonearm combination was used for much of the testing. Also on hand for comparison were a 1980's era LP12 with Basik LVX arm, a Technics SL-1200MK2, and a Pioneer PLX-1000. One comment made was, "On the Blackbird-Schick deck, these so-called entry-level cartridges played recordings with a layered, three-dimensional complexity that I thought was impossible at these price points. Quiet musical passages were not only quieter; they were filled with magic little details that got noised over, dulled over, or disappeared entirely on the Pioneer and Technics 'tables." I bought an LP12 with Basik arm in 1985 because with its cheap AT-derived cartridge (looked exactly like an AT95E but with a conical stylus), the Linn sounded better than my budget Thorens TD146 no matter how expensive a cartridge I asked the salesman to mount up on it. So my experience is no, all the sound quality is not coming from just the cartridge and phono pre.

Would it be better to just upgrade the cartridge and phono pre and keep what I have??

I have no familiarity with your PL550. I don't know if it's possible where you live, but the best way to answer the question would be to do a comparative audition at an accommodating VPI, Technics, or Linn dealer. Your PL550 sounds great to you, and it will perform just the same even if your ears hear improvement from more expensive turntables. One of my favorite observations from a review article was the following in Jason Kennedy's review of the Rega Planar 2:

"Going from the Planar 2 [fitted with the budget Rega Carbon cartridge] to the new Planar 3 with its Elys2 cartridge and multiple other differences does make a good case for the more expensive turntable. You get more power from drums, a lot more fine detail, tighter timing and more precise focus on the various instruments; more is more. But going back to the P2 is not a painful experience because the fundamentals are still the same, the music is no less enjoyable but the resolution is lower. As soon as you stop comparing the two the more affordable turntable delivers rhythms and melodies that are more than engaging."

Spending more can always get you more, but I love Kennedy's statement that "the music is no less enjoyable" with the cheaper package, at least once you "stop comparing the two." I heard a difference between my Thorens and the Linn that I decided I couldn't live without, but that might not be the case for you and your PL550.

 

[jqp]

The Ortofon Blue recommended load setting is 150-300 pF/47kohms. Have you tried the lowest capcitance setting on the SA8800? Lets say it's 100pF and your tonearm/rca cables are about 100pF, so a total of 200pF. If you have a capacitance meter, the tonearm/rca cables could be measured.

 

[TomD62]

I've been very happy with it but have no idea how it would compare with something like the vintage Pioneer you own. I'm a bit against the grain of many AK posters though, who tend to adore Technics machines and hate Rega. I'm a bit surprised the thread hasn't already seen multiple posters advocating that you get a new Technics.

I will say that U-Turn is not only made in the US, they source most of their components from US suppliers. They offer genuine hardwood (not veneer) plinths and their Gen2 machines are truly excellent IMO. Inverted main bearing, one-piece magnesium tonearm, electronic speed control, height-adjustable isolated feet, all engineered in house. They offer a range from an entry-level model for less than $300 to the Theory, just under $1,000.

FWIW, they are belt drive including a belt running around the circumference of the platter and the head shell is not removable, so not for those who want/need removable head shell or who dislike belt drive of this type.

Last but not least, and very important to me, they also directly support their offerings and an email to them will almost always be answered same day by one of the owners of the company.

Actually DavidTT I am not the OP and have no experience with the Pioneer table referenced. The U Turn is made about 40 miles from where I live, but I have never heard one. Glad that you rate it favorably against higher price decks. I also have to admit that I did just purchase a Technics SL-1200G and absolutely love it. But I will not stand on my soapbox and scream from the heavens that it is the only manufacturer to consider. I did consider a VPI but went with the 1200G.

 

[JohnnieO]

Stereophile's budget cartridge survey (a variety of cartridges now in the $50-200 range) of a few years ago (available online as Gramophone Dreams #44) was interesting in that a $9000 turntable/tonearm combination was used for much of the testing. Also on hand for comparison were a 1980's era LP12 with Basik LVX arm, a Technics SL-1200MK2, and a Pioneer PLX-1000. One comment made was, "On the Blackbird-Schick deck, these so-called entry-level cartridges played recordings with a layered, three-dimensional complexity that I thought was impossible at these price points. Quiet musical passages were not only quieter; they were filled with magic little details that got noised over, dulled over, or disappeared entirely on the Pioneer and Technics 'tables." I bought an LP12 with Basik arm in 1985 because with its cheap AT-derived cartridge (looked exactly like an AT95E but with a conical stylus), the Linn sounded better than my budget Thorens TD146 no matter how expensive a cartridge I asked the salesman to mount up on it. So my experience is no, all the sound quality is not coming from just the cartridge and phono pre.

I have no familiarity with your PL550. I don't know if it's possible where you live, but the best way to answer the question would be to do a comparative audition at an accommodating VPI, Technics, or Linn dealer. Your PL550 sounds great to you, and it will perform just the same even if your ears hear improvement from more expensive turntables. One of my favorite observations from a review article was the following in Jason Kennedy's review of the Rega Planar 2:

"Going from the Planar 2 [fitted with the budget Rega Carbon cartridge] to the new Planar 3 with its Elys2 cartridge and multiple other differences does make a good case for the more expensive turntable. You get more power from drums, a lot more fine detail, tighter timing and more precise focus on the various instruments; more is more. But going back to the P2 is not a painful experience because the fundamentals are still the same, the music is no less enjoyable but the resolution is lower. As soon as you stop comparing the two the more affordable turntable delivers rhythms and melodies that are more than engaging."

Spending more can always get you more, but I love Kennedy's statement that "the music is no less enjoyable" with the cheaper package, at least once you "stop comparing the two." I heard a difference between my Thorens and the Linn that I decided I couldn't live without, but that might not be the case for you and your PL550.

Very informative
Sometimes I just get upgradeitus and wonder the possibilities. If I were to upgrade I would look in the 3K range and that would be by far my largest purchase. Maybe I should just relax and maybe do the better cartridge

Thanks

 

[JohnnieO]

I’m a

The Ortofon Blue recommended load setting is 150-300 pF/47kohms. Have you tried the lowest capcitance setting on the SA8800? Let’s say it's 100pF and your tonearm/rca cables are about 100pF, so a total of 200pF. If you have a capacitance meter, the tonearm/rca cables could be measured.

Im At 200 lowest is 100
I will play with that…..thank you

 

[DavidTT]

Actually DavidTT I am not the OP and have no experience with the Pioneer table referenced. The U Turn is made about 40 miles from where I live, but I have never heard one. Glad that you rate it favorably against higher price decks. I also have to admit that I did just purchase a Technics SL-1200G and absolutely love it. But I will not stand on my soapbox and scream from the heavens that it is the only manufacturer to consider. I did consider a VPI but went with the 1200G.

Oh yeah my bad. Oh well, always looking for a chance to talk up U-Turn. Carry on!

 

[Tonoje]

If you're going to talk upgrades, you should also perhaps be considering whether it's vintage or new that delivers more for your $3000. Particularly because the model you have now is already firmly in the vintage realm, so in theory you have no in-built objection to owning vintage gear. And where I am, $3000 puts a lot of (deservedly) classic turntables within reach; perhaps where you are too?

Of the list of new models you say you're considering, Linn wouldn't appeal to me for a few reasons. I'm not a fan of the company's whole upgrade ecosystem, or its (owner's) stance on a few things, and I'm just not keen on sprung decks anyway.

Ultimately, if I have sufficient money in my pocket for a direct drive or an idler turntable, I'm unlikely to ever get another belt drive turntable, but that's purely a personal preference after years of belt drive use. Separately, a problem I have with Rega is not about hating them but being aware of some of their limitations. P1s to P3s, and I assume P6's as well, have (certainly in some iterations over the years) their own upgrade path or 3rd-party mod path that can really push up the cost if you decide to follow it. I don't mean cartridges here, I mean belts, pulleys, motor isolation units, counterweights, subplatters, and platters. Potentially, a better solution might be to either stay with the stock Rega configuration and be done with it, or look elsewhere in the first place. I'd say the same for just about any other brand where costly upgrades seem to be done (or suggested) as a matter of course. Changing to a 3rd-party platter is fairly drastic, in my view.

 

[mrwood200]

Sometimes I just get upgradeitus and wonder the possibilities ...... If I were to upgrade I would look in the 3K range .....

Oh my. I missed your earlier reference to 3K.
I am in for a 3K upgradeitus project.

And I don't think I am starting with the turntable. TT good enough to allow other upgrades.
Consider MC cartridge + phono preamp. Lot of options. spend little or lots. Example include:
- denon 103 + Parasound Zphono XRM ~$600?
- hana SL + Phonomena II+ or darlington labs mp7b maybe $1500??
Nice system upgrade. Better sound. More flexibility.

Got a record cleaner? any other equipment? .............streamer?
Now we get a little tougher. Got a subwoofer? ... the speakers are going come up for discussion soon.... and for me prior to the TT.
If speakers addressed, then maybe work on moving the equalizer out. If still needed after cartridge/phono/speaker review, consider a digital fix (dsp? drc?)

Then, Pioneer Exclusive P10 turntable.
(fallback - PLC-590 or PL-630; PL-L1000 also an option)
We may need more money.

 

[grillebilly]

I would at least try to upgrade your cartridge before spending thousands on a new turntable.
That’s just me because I hate blowing money.
If the cartridge doesn’t make a big difference then an external DAC would be next.
Maybe you can experiment if there’s any other AK’rs around you that want to test their gear on your system. Swapping carts isn’t very labor intensive if you have the tools and a.little patience.
Good luck. A turntable upgrade has been something I have been thinking about for years. I have 4 vintage tables with different carts and for the most part they are as quiet as a CD on a good pressing. So like yourself it’s a nagging desire.

 

[tabarddn51]

Hi JonnireO, What you need to learn abou, before shelling out your hard earned dollars is COMPATIBITITY.
So you cannot put any old cartridge on any old arm. They have to be compatible, same with the phono amp & cartridge, if you have a bright sounding cart, you do not want a bright sounding phono amp.
I am currently swapping between two carts on my deck, one is a $6000 Ortofon MC2000mk2 & the other is a Denon 103M, cost in it's day $600. (now if you can find one, it's the bargain of a life time, took me 15 years). The sound difference, S/Q is very very small, between the two. The expensive cart only beating the 130M in the very deep bass area. But both carts are compatible with my arm and it is the arm that is the key to how a vinyl system sounds. If the arm cannot hold & react correctly when the cart is playing, the the cart cannot retrieve all the information on the LP.

Of the 3 T/T's you mentioned in your 1st post, the Tech 1200 would be the one to go for, however the arm on it is not the best & should be changed at a later date. The actual T/T itself will last for years.

Cheers

 

[Buck Rogers]

Knowing what I know now, I would go with a entry level Low Output Moving Coil cartridge about 300$

And a LOMC stepup transformer (300$) Then drop it on your present TT.

A fairly low cost upgrade that will really elevate the performance your system.

It sounds like Instant Analog Nirvana!

 

[Mr Boochie]

Would it be better to just upgrade the cartridge and phono pre and keep what I have??

As you climb up the upgrade ladder, you'll find that there is a point where the source of the LP (quality and condition) becomes the limiting factor. You'll start hearing the difference between good and bad pressings. There won't be a direct correlation between when the LPs were pressed. It'll become who engineered and produced the LP, and where it was mastered and pressed. And the difference will not be subtle.

I just thought that I'd throw this wrinkle into the mix.