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When should you replace an out of tolerance resistor?

BassKulcha

Cathode Follower
Subscriber
I've been checking resistor values in a Pilot SA-232 amp that I'm recapping and am coming across values that are either slightly over tolerance (e.g. +/- 12% on a 10% resistor), or slightly under tolerance (e.g. +/- 8% on a 10%).
  • Assuming that a resistor doesn't magically undergo a state change at the marked tolerance value, what are the effects of minimal over- or under-value resistors?
  • Does a resistor at +/- 12% value sound different than a resistor at +/- 8% value?
  • If not, at what point is there either a noticeable change in sound quality? And at what point is there an increased component risk?
I'd like to keep this amp as original as possible, but also want to make sure it will be working well for the next 20+ years or so, so I just want to do the right thing—

Thanks in advance for any insight.

(Note: edited tolerance numbers—)
 
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Yeah, I’d replace those. I understand wanting to keep things original, but I’d rather have a properly functioning circuit than bad old parts. If replacing carbon comps, you can still replace with the same type. I usually use carbon films to replace carbon comps in tube amps.
 
Regarding carbon composition resistors in tube amps, ilimzn quoted below:

"If you see a low value carbon comp resistor..........in an amp where everything else is more 'modern' - leave it there. The key is that CCs have almost no seies inductance and this is critical in some places such as grids of triodes and gates of MOSFETs."

https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/i...to-better-than-new-sound.656640/#post-8745545
 
20% resistors can be replaced with modern stuff, and the sound improvment is worth it. The point at which i would make that decision is when one leg is lifted and the resistor measures greater than 20% off tolerance. I would not bother soldering it back down. It and its mate in the corresponding channel would be replaced with CMF 60s. Or whatever modern 1% resistors are available to you.
 
20% resistors can be replaced with modern stuff, and the sound improvment is worth it. The point at which i would make that decision is when one leg is lifted and the resistor measures greater than 20% off tolerance. I would not bother soldering it back down. It and its mate in the corresponding channel would be replaced with CMF 60s. Or whatever modern 1% resistors are available to you.

The CMF60s don't seem to come in some exact sizes I need (e.g. the 270K only comes in 274k). Since it's a 1% tolerance, that should be ok, correct? Or should I go for regular 5% metal (or carbon) film in exact specs?

Also, unless the schematic specifies 2 W, can I assume all resistors are 1/2 W? If so, I'd like to replace with 1 W if possible—sound good?

Thanks—
 
The reason i suggested changing resistors in both channels, in addition to drift is that the cmf will likely be off value from the original. Its more important that they match one another precisely and dont introduce noise. Being a few hundred ohms different from factory is negated by the closer tolerance and newly achieved tight channel balance. Cmf 60s are rated at .5/1 watt and im not edumacated enough to know exactly what that means...
 
Also, when the resistors are speced this way you are getting another order of magnitude of precision due to the value being speced at 271 or 274 k .1% the 0 in the 270k resistor is not a significant figure. The 4 in the 274 k resistor is a significant figure...
 
Compare them side to side. If both sides are equally off, and less than 20%, it will likely work just fine.

Yes, modern resistors hold tighter tolerance, and they will be less noisy. No need for 1% parts unless you just really want to spend the coin. I honestly would use commonly available 5% parts in metal or carbon film, whatever you happen to like. CF is usually a little cheaper, MF should be a little quieter.

Most schematics will spell it out, but generally if it is not specified the resistors are 1/2w. You can upsize them if you want.

my usual selection is basic 1/2w 5% carbon film. I sort by price and get the cheapest ones at Mouser. They work fine. In spots where resistors need to be matched, a few minutes with the meter will hand-match a few resistors to well within 1%. I buy them by the 100 bag whenever I need something so I have stock and can match things as needed.
 
Replacing older Carbon Composition resistors with Metal File or Carbon Film resistors will lessen the noise in most applications.
Using 1% Tolerance resistors will have no noticeable effect on the overall sound quality of an amplifier. - Chris
 
Replacing older Carbon Composition resistors with Metal File or Carbon Film resistors will lessen the noise in most applications.
Using 1% Tolerance resistors will have no noticeable effect on the overall sound quality of an amplifier. - Chris
+1
Was just going to say that.:beerchug:
Perfect opportunity to get rid of any old carbon resistors and replace with new metal film.
Getting rid of/replacing old crumbly carbon resistors is still one of the most overlooked
things when doing a recap, repair, or anything else.
 
Regarding carbon composition resistors in tube amps, ilimzn quoted below: "If you see a low value carbon comp resistor..........in an amp where everything else is more 'modern' - leave it there. The key is that CCs have almost no seies inductance and this is critical in some places such as grids of triodes and gates of MOSFETs."

Yeah, ummm, not so much. Let's apply some physics and electrical engineering to debunk that.

Here's what I previous wrote on the subject, slightly edited.

The purported inductance of the metal-film resistor does not matter at audio frequencies. If one is going to claim it matters, then some supporting data is required.

Here is the counter argument.
The metal-film resistors have nH of inductance—nano Henries—which is essentially zero inductance for our purposes, and won't matter at any frequency encountered in audio. Those nH of inductance do matter at hundreds of MHz or GHz, but at those frequencies even the inductance of PCB traces becomes a design factor. Never at 20 kHz, which is essentially DC as far as the resistor is concerned. The inductance of component leads (resistors and capacitors), sockets, and chassis wiring dominates and is greater than the metal-film resistor.

The problem of parasitic inductance of components only arises at hundreds of MHz or low GHz where tank circuits are formed from the tiny parasitic inductance and capacitance from the wiring and circuit-board traces. Even the inductance of decoupling capacitors matter at those frequencies, as different value capacitors start forming tank circuits with each other. This is why the ground planes can oscillate in computer motherboards and cellphones, and why special high ESR capacitors are used to damp such oscillations. But at audio frequencies? Naaah. Basic electrical engineering and physics explain this.

If money were no object, then wirewound resistors, with greater trivial inductance per unit than metal film, would be the best choice as these are the lowest noise. Wirewound resistors cost a great deal more than metal film, which costs a tiny amount more than carbon film, which costs a tiny amount more than awful carbon-composite resistors. See:
This price disparity was greater when the amplifier was made, although metal film did not yet exist. Carbon film, aka "cracked carbon", was the premium component, and back in the day these cost ten times what ordinary resistors cost.

Even a conventional wire-wound resistor, with inductance typically under a µH—micro Henries—sometimes as much as tens of µH, doesn't matter for audio provided the amplifier does not oscillate. That is key. I must qualify this statement because many audio amplifiers oscillate > 100 kHz, usually > 1 MHz and the designer (or owner) is blissfully unaware of this. A similar problem exists with high slew-rate opamps which oscillate in the same region. So, yes, a wirewound will affect that oscillation, but using a component in a poorly designed circuited and blaming the component isn't fair. (Low value resistors, like the grid and screen stopper, ruin the Q of the circuit and damp that oscillation. Zobels can also be used for this purpose. Removes a lot of lost power and noise.)

The resistors in question have inductance of nH to uH, yet the filters in the circuits we use (such as crossovers) have mH inductors—milli Henries—which is a thousand times (10^3) greater than µH and a million times (10^6) greater than the nH:
milli (m) = 0.001 = 10^-3
micro (µ) = 0.000001 = 10^-6
nano (n) = 0.000000001 = 10^-9
​

How could such a trivial inductance have any effect? (Provided, again, that the circuit (a) is not being used at high frequency and (b) does not oscillate at high frequency, of course.)

Audiophiles, who generally are not electrical engineers or physicists, talk a lot about nonsense read on the interwebs and then endlessly regurgitated until it becomes unquestionable dogma, without any understanding of the underlying engineering or that the original claim was not just unfounded but contrary to basic principles. People instead just nod and say, of course, when the issue is not grounded in reality.

The fact remains that if the trivial inductance of a metal-film resistor mattered at the frequencies in question, then the inductance of the wiring itself would also matter. It does not.
 
Regarding resistor noise, after Palustris last year reminded me of this paper, I ran my copy through OCR and posted it. Here it is again. While I cleaned up the numerous mistakes in the OCR, some may remain:
The Williamson Type Amplifier Brought Up To Date
by M. V. Kiebert
Audio Engineering
Pages 18 to 19, 35
(1952, Aug)

Page 19

Second, it was found that the 47,000-ohm plate-load resistor did, as would be expected, cause increased noise unless wire-wound or low noise level units were used.

With respect to noise level in the first-stage load resistor, a number of resistive elements were checked in order to secure a relative evaluation of each type and value. The following were tested :

1) 1/2 watt composition resistor
2) 1 watt composition resistor
3) 2 watt composition resistor
4) 1 watt deposited film resistor
S) 2 watt S.S. White low-noise-type resistor
6) 1 watt non-inductive, wire-wound resistor
​
The use of a 1-watt composition resistor in lieu of a 1/2-watt unit improved the noise level by approximately 3 db with a like improvement occurring when a 2-watt unit was substituted for the 1-watt unit. The 1-watt S.S. White unit was about 6 db better than the 2-watt composition resistor. The 1-watt deposited film resistor was slightly inferior to the S.S. White unit while the l-watt non-inductive wire-wound resistor was about 6 db better than the 2-watt composition unit.​

Some additional points. The larger the physical size of the resistor the lower the current noise aka excess noise, and the more irregular the material the higher the current noise. A carbon-composite resistor has variable construction (mixture of clay and carbon, as well as phenolic binder), so it has high current noise, particularly at the grain juncture. Johnson-Nyquist noise increases as the square root of the resistance, so a high resistance has more noise. Because the Johnson-Nyquist noise is uncorrelated between the resistors, a series of smaller resistors has noise which increases as the square root of the geometric sum of the individual squares of the noise.

The SS White resistors were special low-noise cracked carbon, a vapor deposition process. Far more expensive. These resistors, you may recall, were the units which gave Haffler so much grief and delayed the PAS:
An Interview with David Hafler, Part 2: The Dynaco Years
by Charles Kittleson
Vacuum Tube Valley
Issue 16

Just about the time we were ordering parts, I noticed a peculiar kind of noise coming from it when it was turned up all the way. The prototype unit didn't have the noise problem. I tried everything that I could think of for weeks, and tried to pin the problem down. I even had Stewart Hegeman come in from New York to analyze the noise problem. He took a look at it and couldn't find the answer (laughter). I finally resolved the thing by taking the preamp apart, piece-by-piece and interchanged them between my breadboard unit and the pre-production unit. I found that the low-noise resistors were noisier than anybody could have anticipated. They were just no good. It took me all that time to find it because they were consistent. They had the same harsh, rushing, waterfall kind of noise. That delayed shipping by several months at a time when the demand was really high. So when we started shipping, we had back orders for a couple thousand units.​
 
Yeah, ummm, not so much. Let's apply some physics and electrical engineering to debunk that.

.....

Ummm...I will continue to believe that ilimzn's comments are valid, thank you very much. I have read, and learned, much from ilimzn's postings over several years, both here and at diyaudio. And I have also read enough of yours.

I know nothing about tubes in general, or grids of triodes specifically.

But I do know that replacing resistors en masse is a currently popular trend for those who like to mod their machines. And these types of trends flourish because of an overpowering desire to attempt to "improve" one's hardware and thus one's listening experience. But in the fervor to "mod", wisdom and knowledge often fall by the wayside. I posted merely to make available an alternative opinion, to open a door to anyone who might wish to dig for more knowledge.
 
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Ummm...I will continue to believe that ilimzm's comments are valid, thank you very much. I have read, and learned, much from ilimzm's postings over several years, both here and at diyaudio. And I have also read enough of yours.

Uhhhh, "valid" because? The inductance values for metal film resistors are published by the manufacturers and the controlling equations for inductive circuits are well known.

How would those negligible amounts of inductance, lower than printed-circuit board traces and wiring, matter at audio frequencies? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

Please explain where I went wrong on the effects. If I am misunderstanding the physics, I'd like to learn how this really does work. It would be amazing to understand how nanoHenries of inductance can matter in circuits operating in the audio bandwidth.

Because if that were the case, then one would, of necessity, need to consider the inductance of the wiring running to the tubes, the inductance of the tube socket, the inductance of terminal strips, the inductance of capacitors, etc. etc. etc.

Open up that can of nano-inductance and the only way to recan it is to use a larger can.

I know nothing about tubes in general, or grids of triodes specifically.

Well, uh, ok, maybe that's a problem for understanding the effects of LC and RLC circuits. I'm relying on electrical engineering and physics here.

But I do know that replacing resistors en masse is a currently popular trend for those who like to mod their machines. And these types of trends flourish because of an overpowering desire to attempt to "improve" one's hardware and thus one's listening experience. But in the fervor to "mod", wisdom and knowledge often falls by the wayside. I posted merely to make available an alternative opinion, to open a door to anyone who might wish to dig for more true knowledge.

Errr, what purported "wisdom" exists in using resistors which are noisy, have drifted, have a voltage coefficient of resistance (Vcr) so that the value changes with applied voltage, etc. etc. etc.

Back in the day, wirewound resistors were used for the lowest possible noise. See above. The problem is the cost is very, very high. That's why cracked carbon was developed, and why Mullard touted it in the 5-20. It was a major advance in reducing noise!

We now have better components for very little cost.

See, this is the problem with audio arguments. I've set forth facts about the nanoHenries of inductance and the frequency band at which this matters, and a counter argument about wiring and lead length and sockets, and it it still comes down to claims of "trends" and the "wisdom" of Ye Olde Ones.
 
I've always been of the understanding that the very low amount of inductance just isn't an issue at audio frequencies. Things get more dicey in the RF region, though strictly speaking I suppose a bit of inductance would slightly help to screen out RF nonsense anyway
 
@Retrovert No offense intended, but I am not going to waste my time reading, or fact checking, your posts. There are some who post in forums to boost their own ego, and some who love nothing more than to argue at length. You may make yourself popular among believers, or a hero in your own mind. It is easy to "win" an argument when no one is arguing back such that it is possible to mold "facts" to support one's assertions, whilst conveniently omitting other information. Posts and attitudes such as this are a part of the internet forum landscape. And that is fine :) But believe it or not, greater knowledge than yours does exist (and/or has been forgotten), and you are not infallible. By all means, please have the last word (or last 10,000 words as the case may be). I will continue to have confidence in the wisdom of the post I quoted initially, and if that post helps one person somewhere down the road, then the effort will have not been in vain.
 
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So, I ended up ordering a slew of CMF60 1% metal film resistors for the ones that were measuring either entirely, or close to being, out of tolerance. I'll replace them as pairs when needed, though I may not be as thorough as I'd like (the underside of this amp is very crowded, so some of the resistors on/around the 12AX7s/12AU7 are piled up like spaghetti and will be pretty challenging to desolder/resolder...)
 
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