You're right, it's a whole different experience from speakers.
Which headphones sound most like loudspeakers?
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RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
Which is why I think that headphones are cool! I bought a pair of Sundara phones, largely due to the recommendations here, and though I admittedly haven't spent all that many hours listening to them, they are pretty satisfying and in a way that is, at least to my ears, far different than speakers. I listen through speakers the vast majority of the time, but sometimes I just want to hear something in a different way and the phones provide that. There's a more intimate feel, if less realistic in terms of the space, but there's also more detail and there's something really nice about being able to pick apart all of those little things that go into a recording. Headphones are fun too in the way that you can easily swap them and get another sound... much easier than swapping (and repositioning) speakers, right?
The Sundara is especially good with upper mids like female vocals, electric guitar and wind instruments imho. It really shines with live jazz and jazz-rock. When properly EQ'd with commercial software it can also deliver that massive yet well controlled bass and sub-bass proper to planar phones. It requires hundreds of hours for break-in though, since HFM doesn't ship it pre-broken in like it does for its high-end models. But that's a modest price to pay for phones that hit far, far above their price point for audiophiles who have the patience to take it up there.
One mod that is almost an absolute requirement though is to upgrade the so-so cable and that applies to all HFM models up to the $1,400 Arya. It's part of HFM's strategy to keep the prices competitive. For my part I use the same $100 balanced cable on all my HFM models with excellent results when I use them with the iFi Zen CAN. They do not require an overly fancy stack, $600 to $800 depending if you use the iFi balanced interconnect (not really a choice, it's by far to best one for this setup), relatively expensive iFi Xpower PSU's (worth the money), iFi DAC V2 and iFi USB cable. Regarding the Zen series iFi is similar to HFM in that it provides one with a basic setup at relatively low cost but you need to to provide your own balanced interconnect (not cheap) and upgrade various other parts (starting with the El Cheapo horrible PSU that comes with the Zen CAN, even iFi urges you to upgrade it in their documentation) if you want all the performance it's capable of. Headphone cable and PSU's makes a very audible difference in SQ, it's almost unbelievable. As for using the Sundara or any other phone with the higher end Simaudio Moon 430 HAD amp/DAC combo I only do that if the source material if of really good quality otherwise it is too unforgiving to be pleasurable. But with well recoded material it is almost magic, even with the modestly priced but mighty Sundara. After all even when it was introduced at $500 it was praised by reviewers as an incredible value so imagine now.
RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
Yeah, I have an upgraded cord for that thing, courtesy of wmgwizard here (thanks!), though I haven't come close to putting the necessary hours on them to have them be property broken in, apparently. They do sound very good to me with lots of detail, but there is something about the sound that's hard to explain, but it's a little bit dry/thin and I have to wonder if that's something that changes with break in. I suspect that it is. Whatever my issue with the sound is though, it's a very subtle slight thing and overall, I really like the sound of these things. I wonder how you might compare these with a pair of Sennhieser HD660s as I saw a pair of those come up for a good price and I wonder if these would compliment the Sundaras, or once they get broken in if they would render the HD660s phones superfluous? I'd be happy to be talked out of buying another pair of phones, but they do look tempting. It's all a little bit silly for me though, I have to admit as I rarely listen to phones anyway. When I do though, I really appreciate the sound...
Incidentally and this came up in another post when I bought the things, but I'm running them off the headphone out of a Marantz 2270 receiver. I was using a Schiit Vali (mkI) headphone amp for my past set of phones, a Sennheiser HD600 and there seemed to be some improvement over the Marantz. The Sundara phones though sound much better through the Marantz (MUCH better) than the Schiit, though I don't doubt that if I bought a really top notch headphone amp and plugged that thing into the Marantz and the phones into it, I'd probably get some improvement. That will have to be for another day though...
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Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
I always thought my 1976 Sennheiser open air HD 424s seemed like they sounded like good sounding speakers, since they allowed room/people noises to be heard unless I really cranked them up to block out all ambient sounds.
I really never liked to wear ear enclosing headphones for any length of time if I could avoid doing so !
I really never liked to wear ear enclosing headphones for any length of time if I could avoid doing so !
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
I use open back phones for the same reasons. Even my IE planars for OTG listening allow for ambient sounds. Being unable to hear ambient sounds while on the go is IMO a bad idea.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
I concur, Mr. Joe.
Being cutoff (aurally isolated) can hinder safety situational awareness in some situations !
I believe question should be "what loudspeaker sound most like headphones". Good headphones.
For me - only Tannoy dual concentric everywhere. From small 8" Tannoy Precision near field monitors in picture below (well they are not in original enclosure, this MDF weight about 110kg) to Monitor Gold 12", DMT 15 and DMT 215. I have them all.
Tannoy is my whole obsession (Studer too)
P.S. But for me headphones what sound like Tannoy is Sennheiser HD250 Linear (I and II)
![20230407_200742[1].jpg](/forums/data/attachments/2726/2726342-333d05241e91aa43b2410a99d9d15baf.jpg?hash=Mz0FJB6Rqk "20230407_200742[1].jpg")
For me - only Tannoy dual concentric everywhere. From small 8" Tannoy Precision near field monitors in picture below (well they are not in original enclosure, this MDF weight about 110kg) to Monitor Gold 12", DMT 15 and DMT 215. I have them all.
Tannoy is my whole obsession (Studer too)
P.S. But for me headphones what sound like Tannoy is Sennheiser HD250 Linear (I and II)
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jayvis
Addicted Member
I believe question should be "what loudspeaker sound most like headphones". Good headphones.
For me - only Tannoy dual concentric everywhere. From small 8" Tannoy Precision near field monitors in picture below (well they are not in original enclosure, this MDF weight about 110kg) to Monitor Gold 12", DMT 15 and DMT 215. I have them all.
Tannoy is my whole obsession (Studer too)
P.S. But for me headphones what sound like Tannoy is Sennheiser HD250 Linear (I and II)
View attachment 2852265
I sure hope Tannoy didn't try to market them that way.
No, they did this this way:
https://www.tannoy.com/innovation/Dual-Concentric-Driver-Technology.html
What is the same egg, only in profile
.I combined Precision 8 with Monacor bass driver with electronic crossover @ 125hz where time delay etc. is not important only precise crossover an level match matters. Tannoy is driven by Revox B740 and 15" Monacor by Crown Xti 2000. These are my near field monitors. Within 2m from ears. Speaker layout is originally from Tesla studio monitors (they has tweeter above midrange on the same axis). Speaker stands are original Tesla.
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Not just "apparently", more like "absolute necessity"
It's a well known fact that planars will sound too bright and dry, sort of digital in nature, until fully broken-in which in the case of the Sundara can take up to 500 hours. This is due to its micron-thin membrane which is extra-stiff on delivery, in fact it is thinner and stiffer than that of any of its lesser 4 or 5 series siblings. Softening the membrane is done through electromagnetic field-generated impulse but despite having a more powerful magnet system than most if not all planars under $1,400, the Sundara still requires considerable time to mellow out. The membrane will smooth down after breaking-in and deliver a warmer, almost silky sound with clear yet not ear-piercing high mids like it does sometimes during break-in. Once broken-in this will deliver exquisite clarity without any remnant of harshness, provided the source material is half-decent.
If you like loud music, that will be the cue to pull out your Zeppelin, Rush, Metallica, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and what have you. Your Sundara will keep barking "bring'em on!". At the same time mellow music like, say, Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson and Chopin will lull you to blissful reverie. Then wake up with a dash of Zappa if you wish but make sure wife is not nearby because one thing the Sundara is not is discreet. All open-back designs radiate sound from both sides of the cup but the Sundara takes this to a whole new level. Some blame it on the loosely spaced openings in the grill but that was done by design to avoid standing waves getting trapped behind a tight grill as if by a wall. This can cause overwhelming, phase-misaligned low end to induce severe distortion of the muffled persuasion.
The Sundara lives in a world of its own as the only member of its "series" so to speak, it is neither a 4 or a 5 series but uses technology from both those "inferiors" as well as the the true high-end $2,000 HE6se, from which it has inherited the driver (iirc) and general aesthetics, but also the latter's inefficiency... which means it likes -and needs- more amp power than the average entry-level headphone amp can deliver. Does great with the mid-range iFi Zen series though as long as you use a separate power amp to supplement the DAC if you use your phones in a desktop environment. iFi is not a necessity of course, you can use use other brands but make sure both DAC and amp can be connected in balanced mode unless you can get 2w single-ended which is uncommon in headphone amps below $1k and then again...
And those things will just get better with age. I'm certainly not the first one to say this here but a new Sundara and a broken-in Sundara are two very different phones.
Me personally? I did the the compare side-by-side and after 10 minutes it was clear to me that the Sundara was the better phone. Clearer, more articulate, sense of immediacy, much better at detail-retrieval (to be expected from a planar) deeper sub-bass (fully broken in), more open with less of that music-in-your-head impression. That being said male vocals and low mids are slightly better with the 660S. However the latter feels a bit aloof all over the spectrum to me which is fine for chamber music or small jazz ensembles but not enough to pull points away from the Sundara. So if it's one or the other I'd go for the Sundara without the slightest hesitation. As a complement however, if you listen to small ensemble music you may find the 660S a worthwhile addition. All IMHO of course. I'm not talking you out out per se so you're not off the hook
First of all there may may have been a mismatch between the the receiver's output impedance and and the Senns. As for the Sundara sounding much better well, it loves power and like all receivers wired in parallel the 2270 produces significant output voltage swing. On those receivers the headphone jack is coupled with speakers output via a resistance-padded link which means your phones are powered by the receiver's main amp circuit, which makes for powerful feed. That, plus a very possible output match between phone and receiver is a potent combo for a planar, that's why many people use vintage receivers for that purpose. A good quality headphone amp between the Marantz and the Sundara should make things even better by providing better control of the energy generated.
RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
Not just "apparently", more like "absolute necessity"
It's a well known fact that planars will sound too bright and dry, sort of digital in nature, until fully broken-in which in the case of the Sundara can take up to 500 hours. This is due to its micron-thin membrane which is extra-stiff on delivery, in fact it is thinner and stiffer than that of any of its lesser 4 or 5 series siblings. Softening the membrane is done through electromagnetic field-generated impulse but despite having a more powerful magnet system than most if not all planars under $1,400, the Sundara still requires considerable time to mellow out. The membrane will smooth down after breaking-in and deliver a warmer, almost silky sound with clear yet not ear-piercing high mids like it does sometimes during break-in. Once broken-in this will deliver exquisite clarity without any remnant of harshness, provided the source material is half-decent.
If you like loud music, that will be the cue to pull out your Zeppelin, Rush, Metallica, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and what have you. Your Sundara will keep barking "bring'em on!". At the same time mellow music like, say, Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson and Chopin will lull you to blissful reverie. Then wake up with a dash of Zappa if you wish but make sure wife is not nearby because one thing the Sundara is not is discreet. All open-back designs radiate sound from both sides of the cup but the Sundara takes this to a whole new level. Some blame it on the loosely spaced openings in the grill but that was done by design to avoid standing waves getting trapped behind a tight grill as if by a wall. This can cause overwhelming, phase-misaligned low end to induce severe distortion of the muffled persuasion.
The Sundara lives in a world of its own as the only member of its "series" so to speak, it is neither a 4 or a 5 series but uses technology from both those "inferiors" as well as the the true high-end $2,000 HE6se, from which it has inherited the driver (iirc) and general aesthetics, but also the latter's inefficiency... which means it likes -and needs- more amp power than the average entry-level headphone amp can deliver. Does great with the mid-range iFi Zen series though as long as you use a separate power amp to supplement the DAC if you use your phones in a desktop environment. iFi is not a necessity of course, you can use use other brands but make sure both DAC and amp can be connected in balanced mode unless you can get 2w single-ended which is uncommon in headphone amps below $1k and then again...
And those things will just get better with age. I'm certainly not the first one to say this here but a new Sundara and a broken-in Sundara are two very different phones.
Me personally? I did the the compare side-by-side and after 10 minutes it was clear to me that the Sundara was the better phone. Clearer, more articulate, sense of immediacy, much better at detail-retrieval (to be expected from a planar) deeper sub-bass (fully broken in), more open with less of that music-in-your-head impression. That being said male vocals and low mids are slightly better with the 660S. However the latter feels a bit aloof all over the spectrum to me which is fine for chamber music or small jazz ensembles but not enough to pull points away from the Sundara. So if it's one or the other I'd go for the Sundara without the slightest hesitation. As a complement however, if you listen to small ensemble music you may find the 660S a worthwhile addition. All IMHO of course. I'm not talking you out out per se so you're not off the hook
First of all there may may have been a mismatch between the the receiver's output impedance and and the Senns. As for the Sundara sounding much better well, it loves power and like all receivers wired in parallel the 2270 produces significant output voltage swing. On those receivers the headphone jack is coupled with speakers output via a resistance-padded link which means your phones are powered by the receiver's main amp circuit, which makes for powerful feed. That, plus a very possible output match between phone and receiver is a potent combo for a planar, that's why many people use vintage receivers for that purpose. A good quality headphone amp between the Marantz and the Sundara should make things even better by providing better control of the energy generated.
Thanks... good to know. I missed my window on that deal on those Sennheiser phones so I won't be picking those up. Just as well really as firstly, I don't even listen to phones all that much so the idea of another pair seems kind of silly for someone like myself. Secondly, having a different pair to play with might not be the kind of thing that would be that inter sting to me anyway, particularly if the pair that I have is likely to be superior (and not just different). Then there's the fact that I don't need to be spending that cash, even if it is only $150.
Nice though that I have even better sound to look forward to as the Sundaras break in more. Good too that my trusty old vintage amp is a good match for these phones. "Good" as far as I'm concerned is really good enough as I've come to a point in this journey where I'm less inclined to seek out the best. I kind of feel that basic upgrades are worth doing but beyond a certain point there's still implements to be sure, but maybe not ones that are satisfying. You upgrade something and then all the music that you play though it has a new sparkle for a little while but after a time it's just merely good sound rather than something that's really paradigm shifting... rinse and repeat. I just want my music collection to be really satisfying for me and I don't care about "best" of anything... and I think that I'm pretty much there!
And I thought Focals were big but this... wow. lol
If I were you I'd wait until the Sundara is well into break-in (say 150 to 200 hours) before I decide if I want a different model to compliment them. And I'd definitely add an amp into the mix before making any decision as well. The Sundara definitely sounds best with a dedicated amp. In your case I would use a true tested SS design with sufficient analog connectivity, typically RCA in and out that you would connect to the tape loop on your receiver, or EQ loop if it has one.
RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
What amp(s) would you recommend for my Saundra phones? I've heard that the headphone out on my Marantz amp is actually a pretty good match for the Sundaras, but if I'm going to get noticeably better sound, I might consider an outboard headphone amp.