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Which is best MM or MC?

In your opinion, what would it cost for a decent LOMC cart and is my present gear (integrated amp) capable of this?

The Denon DL-301MkII compares well with most European MC's of $800+, and in fact thirty years ago, its MkI version was competing with them at the same price. Denon MC's sound better than most, including plenty costing thousands, but some think they don't cost enough to be good. Countless reviews, both objective and subjective, over many decades have put them near the top of the tree. You can still buy quality at reasonable prices. Your amp will easily handle it, and you'll hear a difference - you don't need anything more expensive than you've got. While there are phono stages around that will sound better, yours is adequate for the task. Spend the money on a cartridge, which provides more of a difference than any change in amplifier. Your speakers should be quite OK.
 
I sort of agree with dolph, but IMO the description of $700+ MC cartridges should be changed from "decent" to "very good." That, IMO is were cartridges begin to get very serious. But that of course is far outside the OP's budget, unless he buys used - a prospect many cringe at, but I bought my Glider M2 lightly used, and as long as you're careful about whom and where you buy it from, you should be ok. Mine was exactly as advertised, in like new condition, apparently used for 50-70 hours or so, and about 50% less than the new price.

If, through some miracle, the OP can stretch his budget to include something like the Benz ACE (the first and perhaps only strong recommendation I make at that specific price point), he should take a look at the medium output model, which dolph mentioned in his post. My Glider is the medium output version, .8mV, and I absolutely love it. This way you kind of get the best of both worlds: the output, and therefore moving mass, is very low, but no so extreme that you need to have an extremely high quality and low noise phono preamp in order to really enjoy the cartridge.

One more thing: dolph mentioned the upper-end Goldring cartridges. I don't know if the models he noted are anything like the Eroica (which was one of their better MC cartridges), but I've spent a lot of time listening to the Eroica in the last eight years, and I'm honestly not too crazy about it. It is a very natural sounding cartridge, which is good, but too smooth and polite for my taste.

...

My opinion on the Eroica is that it's not very detailed nor dynamic.
There's a lot of things the "Eroica is not".
And then it only works in very light weight arms.

This is why I pulled out exactly those Goldring cartridges worth mentioning.


There is a reason to focus on the cartridge in the stereo set-up.
Transducers are those spots that gives the most difference for each cent you spend.

Transducers are at any spot in the set-up where electronic signals are made from mechanical movements (cartridge), magnetic fields (tape heads), accoustic waves (microphones) or vice versa; electronic signals are made into accoustic waves (speakers).

Difference is not always for the better.
It's up to you, the owner of the set-up, to make proper research to ensure that this difference comes out to the better.

The DL 301 mkI or mkII is very neutral.
it misses the the rythm from the bigger sister; the "rock-cartridge", DL 304.
It also misses the soundstage.
The midrange is without attack at all.
Furthermore, it has a very vulnerable cantilever.
And it has this "Denon sound" that I, and quite a few other people that has accepted that great cartridges demands a bit more money, find annoyingly colouring.
I would be able accept the sound in the 301 for a while, given the circumstance that the stereo set-up wouldn't be able to produce much better.
Except only few music lovers will have a stereo like that.


But why even bother..........................?
It is a low budget cartridge and with Denon cartridges you barely get what you pay for.
You won't even get proper value for the money, buying the Denon DL-1000A or the DLS1, although Denon really tried to get rid of the colouring "Denon-Sound" with these two.

"dolph"
 
And it has this "Denon sound" that I, and quite a few other people that has accepted that great cartridges demands a bit more money, find annoyingly colouring.
I would be able accept the sound in the 301 for a while, given the circumstance that the stereo set-up wouldn't be able to produce much better.
Except only few music lovers will have a stereo like that.
But why even bother..........................?
It is a low budget cartridge and with Denon cartridges you barely get what you pay for.
You won't even get proper value for the money, buying the Denon DL-1000A or the DLS1, although Denon really tried to get rid of the colouring "Denon-Sound" with these two."dolph"
I have the Denon DL103 and find it pretty good on my sysatem. It does need a good phono stage, plus decent amplifier and speakers, to get the best out of it.

Having read your amusing but highly biased posts above, I have to ask why do you hate the Denons so much?
 
I have the Denon DL103 and find it pretty good on my sysatem. It does need a good phono stage, plus decent amplifier and speakers, to get the best out of it.

Having read your amusing but highly biased posts above, I have to ask why do you hate the Denons so much?

I don't hate Denon at all.

I just don't like them.
Reason is that I want sound of reproduced music to be great quality.

My description of the character of the sound from the Denon cartridges are based on factual experiences, listening to these cartridges through very high end gear and comparing them to many other cartridge experiences.

"dolph"
 
I have a Signet TK7E mm cartridge,circa 1978, that I have been happy with.I will sonn be using a new tube phono stage with it.How do I check that the cartridge is loaded properly for the phono stage?Thanks,
Dave
 
The price levels quoted in the later postings are just plain impractical for most of us, especially for a introductory exploration of what the differences in technology may be. Nonetheless, all observations are appreciated by me at least and are instructive and appreciated.
Hogdaddy, I would be happy to loan you an MC to try in your system if you feel confident in your ability to properly mount it and handle it, I have lunch at Richard's BBQ on Acton Road most Thursdays and could meet you there ca 12:00.
 
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I don't hate Denon at all.

I just don't like them.
Reason is that I want sound of reproduced music to be great quality.
"dolph"
That's why I chose the DL103.

Yes, it's a budget MC, but do remember it is a lot better than the MM competition at the price (I paid 120€), though I don't claim to have heard all the competition. The only ones that come close are the upgraded AT95E, and perhaps the Grado Prestige models for the midrange.
 
I have a Signet TK7E mm cartridge,circa 1978, that I have been happy with.I will sonn be using a new tube phono stage with it.How do I check that the cartridge is loaded properly for the phono stage?Thanks,
Dave

Re; The Signet TK7E;
I ran one in the late '70s before going Grado and later HOMC.
Loading of TK7E is specified good at standard 47k or 47k-100k for CD-4, no capacitance load specified but due to CD-4 rating assume lower is better. Your pre will probably fall well within these parameters.
The TK7E's inductance is 370mH, DC resistance 500 ohm.
 
Considered that transducers have the before mentioned impact on the sound, I am puzzled when people state that everything above ~ $150 is too much for a cart, when some of you drive huge V8 cars, eat a lot of steaks, drink a lot of beer and wine, maybe have 7 set-up syndrom, have several equipment on the shelves, spen big $$ on cables etc.

"dolph"
 
Considered that transducers have the before mentioned impact on the sound, I am puzzled when people state that everything above ~ $150 is too much for a cart, when some of you drive huge V8 cars, eat a lot of steaks, drink a lot of beer and wine, maybe have 7 set-up syndrom, have several equipment on the shelves, spen big $$ on cables etc.
"dolph"
Well, a dealer here puts the AT95E shibata version on all decks up to the 12000€ LP12 on the grounds that it's the most musical cartridge until you get to serious high end (and for most of us totally out of reach) systems, so less than $150 cartridges can't be all bad.

By the way, I don't eat steaks and only have a V6...
 
Well, a dealer here puts the AT95E shibata version on all decks up to the 12000€ LP12 on the grounds that it's the most musical cartridge until you get to serious high end (and for most of us totally out of reach) systems, so less than $150 cartridges can't be all bad.

By the way, I don't eat steaks and only have a V6...

I can only reply:
Find another dealer.
One that replace both the AT and the LP12.

"dolph"
 
"Re; The Signet TK7E;
I ran one in the late '70s before going Grado and later HOMC.
Loading of TK7E is specified good at standard 47k or 47k-100k for CD-4, no capacitance load specified but due to CD-4 rating assume lower is better. Your pre will probably fall well within these parameters.
The TK7E's inductance is 370mH, DC resistance 500 ohm. "
Thanks for that information on the Signet TK7E.It looks like it should work well with most phono stages.By capacitance being lower,the better,do you mean the capacitance of the tone arm wires and my phono cables?Thanks,
Dave
 
Very helpful thread with some spirited (no surprise there) and clearly learned discusions. Wouldn't want to hijack the thread but would anyone care to comment on their views of the difference(s) between HOMC and LOMC?

Edit:
Should have done this to begin with rather than kill a terrifically interesting thread. Found this and it was tremendously helpful:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=278316

Sorry for the hijack, temporary though it may have been.
 
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Tho' I already did in an earlier posting no hijack here, thank you for posting!.
I find MCs generally more dynamically 'open' and 'alive' than MMs, a sonically more direct and clear path to the source. This isn't necessarily an advantage with poorly recorded and incompetently engineered recordings which are the norm, particularly with pop records tho' there are sonically outstanding exceptions. Ricky Lee Jones' debut albums, most Joni Mitchell, Steely Dan, Dire Straits, and Vangelis as well as anything done by Alan Parsons as producer do come to mind. Columbia classicals tend to sound shrill and gimmicky and nothing can make them sound good, just tolreable.
 
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"Re; The Signet TK7E;
I ran one in the late '70s before going Grado and later HOMC.
Loading of TK7E is specified good at standard 47k or 47k-100k for CD-4, no capacitance load specified but due to CD-4 rating assume lower is better. Your pre will probably fall well within these parameters.
The TK7E's inductance is 370mH, DC resistance 500 ohm. "
Thanks for that information on the Signet TK7E.It looks like it should work well with most phono stages.By capacitance being lower,the better,do you mean the capacitance of the tone arm wires and my phono cables?Thanks,
Dave

Yes, those and the pre's input would all cumulatively contribute to the total shunt loading capacitance.
 
Hi,

AFAIUI the point of the OP was to upgrade the Denon
DL60 MM originally fitted to the deck for less than $200.

IMO the AT440MLa (a $300 MM for $100) is a no-brainer,
it will suit the arm well, as its a light weight detachable.

The OP with the AT440MLa cannot go wrong IMO for $100.

The laws of diminishing returns apply to expensive cartridges.

If in the USA I'd jump all over the $100 AT440MLa, its a steal,
the quality is absolutely superb for the price, a major upgrade.

rgds, sreten.
 
Reading through the thread, I've got to say, I don't think it's at all fair to say that one has to spend 750+ to get a 'decent MC'. I can say from personal experience that some of the lower priced pickings are quite enjoyable and offer a lot of bang for the price of admission. As with all things analog, you can ALWAYS find something a bit better, usually at a higher price point; a VDH Grasshopper will likely show substantial improvements over a BMS Glider, that doesn't take anything away from the glider or change the fact that it's a heck of a choice in its price class.

Additionally I think it needs to be said that a preference for a certain sound in your analog tastes does not make competing products junk. I like the Rega sound, that in no way makes Pro-Ject junk, and having had an LP12 in house for a while I can say that while it did not suit my tastes 100%, they do a LOT of things right, and are apparently the perfect fits for others, some of which frequent this board. The fact is that at a certain point analog becomes as much about about personal taste and what you want your system to sound like as it is about objective differences, I think it's important not to lose sight of that when discussing topics such as this.
 
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Thanks.Did you like the TH7E when you owned it?
Dave

I liked it enuff to have another stylus and have them regularely retipped with Shibada tips until the Grado period.
I'd describe it as a superb tracker and smooth, linear, and detailed cart. It however never sounded 'natural' to me, rather a 'technical' sound like fine machinery mimicing music and getting it mostly but still not quite right. I could never forget I was listening to a great cartridge rather then ignore the technicals and enjoy listening to the music thru a great system. It's entirely possible that it achieves a more satisfactory synergistic result in other systems.
 
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Reading through the thread, I've got to say, I don't think it's at all fair to say that one has to spend 750+ to get a 'decent MC'.
But it may be necessary to spend that much to get a MC to sound significantly better than a MM or MI for a similar cartridge price- for the reasons given in my previous post. At moderate spending levels, one should be looking for advanced stylus shape, low mass cantilever and good potential attachment to arms before considering generator type. The AT 440MLa mentioned here is a good example of the sort of solution I mean.
 
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