Which McIntosh 5 channel amp combo is recommended

[Doobie]

Hi, I first posted back a couple months ago asking about McIntosh as I was considering getting the MC207 for home theater-vinyl. Since then I have been doing a lot of research just trying to educate myself on all the factors that make a great system (including Dynamic headroom, damping factor, speaker RMS vs Watts (peak power),....which leads me to my question.

I pretty confident that I do not want to go the MC207. I definitely want to go with an amp that has minimally a transformer. I personally have narrowed it down to three amps, MC601, MC452, and MC303. It's the combos to make 5 channel for home theater and also get best 2 channel audio (mainly vinyl). Plus future speaker change and longevity.

My main worry is the 303, after reading lots of post on how they have tweaked the newer amps (601,452) that they do not sonically sound the same as the other two.

There are a few combos like the following:

1.MC601 (3 used for LR fronts and center) and a MC452 (to me these match up to specifications - down side is a lot of amps for power usage...

2. MC601 (2 used for LR fronts) and a MC303 - Worried about amp power diff and if amps deliver same sound

3. MC303 and a MC452 (used for LR fronts) - do they deliver same sound.

Would greatly appreciate some input, especially if you have one of the combos mentioned. Maybe a completely different combo.

 

[damacman]

I would say that you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference between the sound of any of the amplifiers you list. I'd be astounded if you could honestly do so.

 

[Amado]

Hi, I first posted back a couple months ago asking about McIntosh as I was considering getting the MC207 for home theater-vinyl. Since then I have been doing a lot of research just trying to educate myself on all the factors that make a great system (including Dynamic headroom, damping factor, speaker RMS vs Watts (peak power),....which leads me to my question.

I pretty confident that I do not want to go the MC207. I definitely want to go with an amp that has minimally a transformer. I personally have narrowed it down to three amps, MC601, MC452, and MC303. It's the combos to make 5 channel for home theater and also get best 2 channel audio (mainly vinyl). Plus future speaker change and longevity.

My main worry is the 303, after reading lots of post on how they have tweaked the newer amps (601,452) that they do not sonically sound the same as the other two.

There are a few combos like the following:

1.MC601 (3 used for LR fronts and center) and a MC452 (to me these match up to specifications - down side is a lot of amps for power usage...

2. MC601 (2 used for LR fronts) and a MC303 - Worried about amp power diff and if amps deliver same sound

3. MC303 and a MC452 (used for LR fronts) - do they deliver same sound.

Would greatly appreciate some input, especially if you have one of the combos mentioned. Maybe a completely different combo.

I have the 303 for center and surrounds and 452 for fronts
And the sound is intoxicating

 

[Doobie]

I have the 303 for center and surrounds and 452 for fronts
And the sound is intoxicating

Thanks Amado, that is perfect, it looks like you have the MX151, how do you like it?

 

[Amado]

The best,
the ROOM PERFECT makes miracles
is a good choice if you have in mind to have it
If you need some help PM me

 

[twiiii]

The 303 was the first Mac Power amp to use the Thermal tracking transistors now used by the 601 and 452. So to me they sound pretty much the same. You didn't say what power hungry speakers you have. Mine are rated at 95 db 1 watt 1 meter, a 207 is fantastic choice for me as I never use more than 50 watts per section tri amped on the L&R and 70 watts persection bi- amped center and rear with the sides running around 30 watts at most. Remember the center channel is the most important channel and all three front speakers should be identical. If that's the case and you need more than 300 watts I suppose you would need 3 601's, and 302 to a 452 for the fill speakers. If the speakers are from the same family, but not identical, the choices of amps are to numerous to list. Remember your speakers need to be able to reproduce 110 db continuos with a 6 db peaking factor. So if you have XRT 28's or something similar you need 200 watts to reach 110 db and 800 watts to reach 116. Where my speakers only require about the sum of the tri-amps to be about 120 watts per speaker L&R and 140 watts bi-amped for the center. As the rears and sides are close by 1/2 to 1/3 the power of the front is needed to make me happy. I prefer a front biased system.

 

[Doobie]

The 303 was the first Mac Power amp to use the Thermal tracking transistors now used by the 601 and 452. So to me they sound pretty much the same. You didn't say what power hungry speakers you have. Mine are rated at 95 db 1 watt 1 meter, a 207 is fantastic choice for me as I never use more than 50 watts per section tri amped on the L&R and 70 watts persection bi- amped center and rear with the sides running around 30 watts at most. Remember the center channel is the most important channel and all three front speakers should be identical. If that's the case and you need more than 300 watts I suppose you would need 3 601's, and 302 to a 452 for the fill speakers. If the speakers are from the same family, but not identical, the choices of amps are to numerous to list. Remember your speakers need to be able to reproduce 110 db continuos with a 6 db peaking factor. So if you have XRT 28's or something similar you need 200 watts to reach 110 db and 800 watts to reach 116. Where my speakers only require about the sum of the tri-amps to be about 120 watts per speaker L&R and 140 watts bi-amped for the center. As the rears and sides are close by 1/2 to 1/3 the power of the front is needed to make me happy. I prefer a front biased system.

Thanks, why one of my options are for the 3 601's, I agree on center comment of importance. To me processors-sources should be the only thing to upgrade going forward as there is always a new standard coming out, Like USB 3, hdmi 1.?/2.? and or compression-decompression, bit rate, up-scaling,.... I want the amps I get to be lifetime and want to make sure I do it right this time. Your reply is very informative, thanks again

Currently I have Klipsch RF-83 for fronts (very efficient - If I recall close to 98-100, sensitivity 100dB @ 2.83V / 1m ). Klipsch RC 64 center and Klipsch RC62 back sats for 5 speakers.

RF-83 are 1000W peak, RC-64 are 800W peak, and RC-62 are 600W peak.

I want to make sure I have enough to drive speakers like the XRT's going forward.

 

[Doobie]

The 303 was the first Mac Power amp to use the Thermal tracking transistors now used by the 601 and 452. So to me they sound pretty much the same. You didn't say what power hungry speakers you have. Mine are rated at 95 db 1 watt 1 meter, a 207 is fantastic choice for me as I never use more than 50 watts per section tri amped on the L&R and 70 watts persection bi- amped center and rear with the sides running around 30 watts at most. Remember the center channel is the most important channel and all three front speakers should be identical. If that's the case and you need more than 300 watts I suppose you would need 3 601's, and 302 to a 452 for the fill speakers. If the speakers are from the same family, but not identical, the choices of amps are to numerous to list. Remember your speakers need to be able to reproduce 110 db continuos with a 6 db peaking factor. So if you have XRT 28's or something similar you need 200 watts to reach 110 db and 800 watts to reach 116. Where my speakers only require about the sum of the tri-amps to be about 120 watts per speaker L&R and 140 watts bi-amped for the center. As the rears and sides are close by 1/2 to 1/3 the power of the front is needed to make me happy. I prefer a front biased system.

Thanks, why one of my options are for the 3 601's, I agree on center comment of importance. To me processors-sources should be the only thing to upgrade going forward as there is always a new standard coming out, Like USB 3, hdmi 1.?/2.? and or compression-decompression, bit rate, up-scaling,.... I want the amps I get to be lifetime and want to make sure I do it right this time. Your reply is very informative, thanks again

Currently I have Klipsch RF-83 for fronts (very efficient - If I recall close to 98-100, sensitivity 100dB @ 2.83V / 1m ). Klipsch RC 64 center and Klipsch RC62 back sats for 5 speakers.

RF-83 are 1000W peak, RC-64 are 800W peak, and RC-62 are 600W peak.

I want to make sure I have enough to drive speakers like the XRT's going forward.

 

[twiiii]

With the Klipsch speakers you have, a 207 is more than enough as your out put would be over 123 db at 1 meter. And if your room is on the hard side then the 207 or its mate the 205 would be plenty. If you want the thermal track transistors the 8207 with the funky displays might be more to your taste. Any more power would cause your Klipsch to fail. I don't believe in subwoofers! They never blend correctly as the directional characteristics, time displacement, don't match up with the primary speakers. Give me three Cornwalls and a bunch of Hersey's, and though I am not a Klipsch fan, with a 207 and some Rane professional EQ's and I'll make you a system that will be the envy of everyone in the county where you live. Id rather have 3 XRT 28's behind a porous screen and more for the rears and sides and a bunch of 501's with MQ107's. Maybe less than ideal output, but I'll give up some quantity for quality every time. I guess a bunch of 452's would work, too. Another thought. Three xrt 30's and 4 xrt 29's and a bunch of MC 1.2 K. Why, because i don't like Macs metal domed tweeters and mids, and their XR200 and 1K are under woofered and have ports. YUK. I guess I am to much a Roger Russell fan. My favorite is the XR290 followed by 1052's, show's you how crazy I am.

 

[twiiii]

Your speakers are rated 250 watt's RMS and a 207 is about that. That 1000 peak is advertising garbage. When a Mac goes into Power Guard that's with 2% distortion and your speakers will be over 10 %. So any more power is a waste. And Room Perfect effectively does nothing above 1 khz where the newer Klipsch speakers have some serious irregularities. RP works well below 500 hz where room problems are really an issue. I've tried it with 1K and XRT28. Even Macs big XRT2k with 2000 watts can barley approach your Klipsch levels with 100 watts. So , be Happy.

 

[Bubo]

Hi, I first posted back a couple months ago asking about McIntosh as I was considering getting the MC207 for home theater-vinyl. Since then I have been doing a lot of research just trying to educate myself on all the factors that make a great system (including Dynamic headroom, damping factor, speaker RMS vs Watts (peak power),....which leads me to my question.

I pretty confident that I do not want to go the MC207. I definitely want to go with an amp that has minimally a transformer. I personally have narrowed it down to three amps, MC601, MC452, and MC303. It's the combos to make 5 channel for home theater and also get best 2 channel audio (mainly vinyl). Plus future speaker change and longevity.

My main worry is the 303, after reading lots of post on how they have tweaked the newer amps (601,452) that they do not sonically sound the same as the other two.

There are a few combos like the following:

1.MC601 (3 used for LR fronts and center) and a MC452 (to me these match up to specifications - down side is a lot of amps for power usage...

2. MC601 (2 used for LR fronts) and a MC303 - Worried about amp power diff and if amps deliver same sound

3. MC303 and a MC452 (used for LR fronts) - do they deliver same sound.

Would greatly appreciate some input, especially if you have one of the combos mentioned. Maybe a completely different combo.

How big is your room, and how much money do you want to spend?

You could go 5.1 or 5.0 and run 3 302s and bi amp the center speaker? This also begs the question, why not use 5 of the same speaker? Or get 5 302s and bi-amp 5 speakers, people have done this using 5-7 TOTL 1980s Yamahas M-80s or MX1000s and report great results.

The speakers you currently own, can probably run you out of the room. If you like them, why not pick up a couple of the RW12s the New Egg has been blowing out for the last year a $350ea, at 340WRMS they will blister the paint on your walls. Mine sound great when they are needed, one on each side of your screen would definitely do the job.

Does it have to be 7.1?

To Twiiis point, if you want some different speakers, some of the guys on the Klipsch site have gone with 5 LaScalas which are ear splitting at 2 watts. There is also the Belle in the middle and two K-horns for deeper bass, and possibly Heresys for the year.

Crites makes Cornwall like speakers with your choice of drivers and horns, check out their site for cornscalas, this would be both economical and you can get the drivers you want, a local shop near you can do the finishing with the veneer work, maybe in your garage or house if you let them. 15 inch woofers

I would also take a hard look at what Volti is doing, I think he will make anything you have the money for, feedback is good.

These are Volti's spin on Cornwall like speakers, check out his other models too. 5 of these would rock. Since the horn section is split, you could put the horn on a stand centered under the tv and the woofer next to it, or have volti provide two woofer cabinets one for each side of the horns, that would rock.

 

[Doobie]

Your speakers are rated 250 watt's RMS and a 207 is about that. That 1000 peak is advertising garbage. When a Mac goes into Power Guard that's with 2% distortion and your speakers will be over 10 %. So any more power is a waste. And Room Perfect effectively does nothing above 1 khz where the newer Klipsch speakers have some serious irregularities. RP works well below 500 hz where room problems are really an issue. I've tried it with 1K and XRT28. Even Macs big XRT2k with 2000 watts can barley approach your Klipsch levels with 100 watts. So , be Happy.

Thanks so much, I really appreciate your replies-knowledge. I did do a little research on RMS and crazy math into watts. Obviously I have some more research to do as I am a little lost in this area of what exactly RMS (Root-Mean-Square) is-means.

Again, thank so much for your input and time (hopefully more).

 

[Doobie]

How big is your room, and how much money do you want to spend?
......

The room is 30 * 25 (half the one wall is open concept to stairs up and down)
I am trying to keep things in total under $50K CAD for this purchase- second would be all new speakers). This includes cables and wiring, power (depending on units). If I go the MX121-151, MT5 when released, MVP891, and go any of my mentioned amps (601,452,303) I will not have enough budget left to purchase the speakers I am leaning towards during this round. Why I mentioned for future upgrade - speakers. However if you can suggest a way, I am listening. Especially since I probably should go with the MC207, I would then have lots of room in budget for speakers. Then I do not have the amp watts desired -depends on speakers efficiency then . It's a vicious circle

Missed question has to be 7.1, I will probably only have 5 speakers in my setup. 2 channels in amps for either bi speaker amp or zone (currently I use 4 of 7 ch for LR fronts - high and low speaker inputs)

 

[Bubo]

The room is 30 * 25 (half the one wall is open concept to stairs up and down)
I am trying to keep things in total under $50K CAD for this purchase- second would be all new speakers). This includes cables and wiring, power (depending on units). If I go the MX121-151, MT5 when released, MVP891, and go any of my mentioned amps (601,452,303) I will not have enough budget left to purchase the speakers I am leaning towards during this round. Why I mentioned for future upgrade - speakers. However if you can suggest a way, I am listening. Especially since I probably should go with the MC207, I would then have lots of room in budget for speakers. Then I do not have the amp watts desired -depends on speakers efficiency then . It's a vicious circle

Missed question has to be 7.1, I will probably only have 5 speakers in my setup. 2 channels in amps for either bi speaker amp or zone (currently I use 4 of 7 ch for LR fronts - high and low speaker inputs)

You are going to run a zone somewhere else in the house?

 

[Doobie]

You are going to run a zone somewhere else in the house?

Hate to say never, but I would say that I will not have a zone two.

If I ever did expend to 7.1 and up, the first would be to have 4 fronts. The two new would be LH and RH. Since each backs are angled designed to already point left and right (there write-up was for full sound placement) I have placed them accordingly so that it kind-of already emulates sides.

 

[Bubo]

Hate to say never, but I would say that I will not have a zone two.

If I ever did expend to 7.1 and up, the first would be to have 4 fronts. The two new would be LH and RH. Since each backs are angled designed to already point left and right (there write-up was for full sound placement) I have placed them accordingly so that it kind-of already emulates sides.

Doobie,

Someone else may have already said this, but I would suggest that you decide which speakers you are going with long term, then design the amplification around them.

Some of the horn loaded speakers like Klipsch 104db w/1m, Crites, and Volti (need to see his specs) are incredibly efficient and would split your ear drums at 50 watts, 2 being loud on my system .002 for most listening. It's always good to have some extra power, some claim it gives better bass response. You could probably get by with 5 tube x 40 watts amps like the designer of Klipsch had, same name. Tube rolling on a surround systems, could start your own forum thread.

If you are setting up a TV room, and want stereo in a different room or upstairs, I would suggest two discrete systems, and tailor them for the space and use.

As an example: If you wanted to go Klipsch for the TV system, you can buy 3 LaScala IIs splits for the front, and a pair of Heresys for the rear; for the center channel, I would dismount the horn section and center it below the TV with the woofer next to it allowing the TV to be centered at eye level sitting. If you want to go with subs for the action stuff, get a pair of them and locate them on both sides of the TV, 15 inch Velodynes rock as do the RW12s.....3 LaScalas plus 2 Heresys = $3500x3 + Heresys $850x2 = $10,500 + $1,700 = $12,200 plus the subs of your choice.

The next question is how to power them, 1 x 5ch system, 5 x mono blocks, 3 x stereo amps?

Another question to consider is how your equipment will be deployed, open or closed rack, shelved etc. I have been very happy with my decision to go open rack on wheels, especially when I have had to access the gear or cables, heat is a non-issue. The gear looks great, why hide it?

I would skip the platinum cables woven by singing virgins in the light of full moons during leap years and go with some high-quality fat-copper twisted-pair (belden makes good stuff) if your running in the walls and gold plated connectors, it will be cheaper and better. If you go the 3 or 5 amps route, if you use a balanced connection to the pre-amp, you can co-located the rear amp/s with the rear speakers.

If you are going to load all of your music on a hard disk, NAS, all of it can be accessed from anywhere in the house with a networked device, I use a laptop for this and have 500+CDs in bins on the shelves in my basement, soon to be joined by 200+ vinyl records....my next project. This also lets you go cloud music for whatever it is now.... $10 a month? So a second or third system in the house still has access to everything without the cable runs etc, all wireless. I currently have 3 pcs and three complete stereos networked this way. Mostly, we listen to the radio, my stereo turns on at 6 am and off at 10 pm.

I'm guessing that there are plenty of people on this forum that would be happy to let you listen to their stereo and speakers that live in your area. Apparently, the days of Audio Associates when you could hear it all in one place are gone. :tears:

I would also take a hard look at the grounding on your house and electrical system, sinking two 8 foot grounding rods one one each side of the house and connecting my antennas and electrical access box to them somehow made everything better especially the TV picture. Also pay to have a whole house power surge protector added to your main fuse box, it will save everything that runs on electricity inc your furnace and AC if there is a hit near you. Apparently these are common in TX and FL but the builders in the North save the $50 and don't install them. Lets say budget $300 for the rods and surge protector installed. Perhaps this is phase one, get the electrical outlets that you plan to use isolated from the rest of the house and improve the grounding $500, and you can do it now.

When I disconnected my satellite dish, when we installed the roof antennas, is when I realized that the ground for the dish was my TV set, nice.

Also look at the APC products for power distribution and local over-under voltage protection, most of the other stuff is expensive junk.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rich Andrews]

The speakers you currently own, can probably run you out of the room.

Those speakers are very similar to the first pair I built. They were 15" woofers in a bass reflex design with a midrange horn and HF horn. Loud as hell and bass that just would rattle the walls. The response was anything but flat in the midrange and it sounded like...well it sounded like a horn speaker system. The response issues were due to the horns. In retrospect there were a couple of pluses to a horn design. They are:

1 - Very efficient.
2 - Low cost

On the minus side, they could not handle much power. 75 watts per channel was too much. Even 60 WPC was too much. A pair of MC30 amps would have been about right. That bass reflex design was all the rage when the MC30 amps were made.

Another minus were the cabinet size. To keep the efficiency of the woofer high to more closely match the horns, a bass reflex was dictated. To do a proper bass reflex with my drivers, a large cabinet was mandated.

I have moved on from that horn design and found other systems that more closely match my priorities in a speaker system. Of course the cost went up. Given what I paid for those first drivers, the speaker cost went up by a factor of about 100. The power requirements also went up by a factor of 10.

Be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

Richard