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Which New Preamp To Get ?

"What is a "sin of omission?"

The preamp is a link in the signal chain. If more information comes in than leaves, then a sin of omission has been committed. Signal loss. Clarity loss. In other words, things have been omitted from the source signal.

"Does't, "alter the frequency response" mean distorts?"

No, not necessarily. Distortion figures and frequency response are two different things. Both can be screwed up by a preamp. The ideal is of course a wire with gain, but that is not automatic and in my experience, not that common. Rolled off highs, rolled off lows, a midrange dip, a spike hear or there...all of these things can leave a sonic signature even in a preamp that has low distortion figures.

"How does a pre amp "screw with dynamics?"

This is getting into technical stuff best handled by those who know more about it, but from what I have experienced trying several different preamps...Weak power supply. Overly complex signal path that leads to signal loss. The types of capacitors used. I don't know for sure for any given one, as it varies from preamp to preamp. Even the interaction between amp and preamp can play with dynamics if the output and input impedance of the two aren't well matched. Sometimes when you use a tube preamp with a solid state amp, the impedance mis-match will lead to a loss of bass and, I would expect, a loss of dynamics with it.

"How can a pre amp be a "bad match to drive a particular amp?"

If you haven't heard this yourself, you and I have been playing with much different gear...which is, of course, very possible. I've had amps that sound great with one preamp, terrible with another. That same preamp that sounded bad with one amp, sounds great with another. And so and and so on...which is partially where the term 'synergy' comes from. Some feel system synergy is one of the most important aspects of a truly great system.

Also, in my experience of attending audio getogethers, etc, it is not a crap shoot to get people to agree on how something sounds. It may be a crap shoot as to whether or not they like that sound, but in general I've not been in a room full of people who couldn't talk about the sound they were hearing in at least close, approximate terms. Obviously we all have different ears, and each of those ears has it's own frequency response, not unlike how two microphones sound different (yes, they really do, a Neumann U47 does not sound like a Shure SM58).

We're simply going to have to agree that our experiences are different. I've heard good preamps and bad preamps (to my ears and taste) and some that sounded like others and some that sounded completely different than others. It's only my opinion.
 
How can a pre amp be a "bad match to drive a particular amp?"

A real world example I actually did about 15 years ago:

Connected a BAT VK3i preamp (output impedance >1KOhm) via balanced interconnects to a Threshold T400 amplifier (Input impedance 600 Ohm). The result was horrible, as expected. No bass, no dynamics. Flat, lifeless sound. If you're curious to see what a mismatched preamp/amp sound like together, I can vouch for this combination :D.
 
Sure, but one would ass-u-me the 1:10 minimum rule of thumb is known by audio cognoscenti, thus avoiding such a combination from the get-go.
 
"What is a "sin of omission?"

The preamp is a link in the signal chain. If more information comes in than leaves, then a sin of omission has been committed. Signal loss. Clarity loss. In other words, things have been omitted from the source signal.

would't this be a defective unit?

"Does't, "alter the frequency response" mean distorts?"

No, not necessarily. Distortion figures and frequency response are two different things. Both can be screwed up by a preamp. The ideal is of course a wire with gain, but that is not automatic and in my experience, not that common. Rolled off highs, rolled off lows, a midrange dip, a spike hear or there...all of these things can leave a sonic signature even in a preamp that has low distortion figures.

Who sells preamps that "screw up" frequency responses?
Are there any graphs to support this in referance to the units being considered by the op?

"How does a pre amp "screw with dynamics?"

This is getting into technical stuff best handled by those who know more about it, but from what I have experienced trying several different preamps...Weak power supply. Overly complex signal path that leads to signal loss.

Again, how does this relate to the units being considered by the OP?
I see this as a none issue given the units being considered.
That being said I do acknowledge this and in my own "main" system I purposely choose to eliminate an external preamp and run direct from the source to power amps.

The types of capacitors used. I don't know for sure for any given one, as it varies from preamp to preamp. Even the interaction between amp and preamp can play with dynamics if the output and input impedance of the two aren't well matched.

Can you be specific in reference to the items being considered by the OP?

Sometimes when you use a tube preamp with a solid state amp, the impedance mis-match will lead to a loss of bass and, I would expect, a loss of dynamics with it.

Tubes I acknowledge do affect sound. You call it warm, I call it distortion.

"How can a pre amp be a "bad match to drive a particular amp?"

If you haven't heard this yourself, you and I have been playing with much different gear...which is, of course, very possible. I've had amps that sound great with one preamp, terrible with another. That same preamp that sounded bad with one amp, sounds great with another. And so and and so on...which is partially where the term 'synergy' comes from. Some feel system synergy is one of the most important aspects of a truly great system.


If I find that a pre amp is altering the sound in any way I will not purchase it.


Also, in my experience of attending audio getogethers, etc, it is not a crap shoot to get people to agree on how something sounds. It may be a crap shoot as to whether or not they like that sound, but in general I've not been in a room full of people who couldn't talk about the sound they were hearing in at least close, approximate terms. Obviously we all have different ears, and each of those ears has it's own frequency response, not unlike how two microphones sound different (yes, they really do, a Neumann U47 does not sound like a Shure SM58).

A fundamental course in psychology would explain why a room full of people would hear the same thing.

We're simply going to have to agree that our experiences are different. I've heard good preamps and bad preamps (to my ears and taste) and some that sounded like others and some that sounded completely different than others. It's only my opinion.

I have no problem disagreeing with you. :smoke:
 
Similar Ask - I did not see this thread fellas!

I started a thread like this one asking for help with both a new preamp and Power amp as I am upgrading my main system to new gear.

So far I have the speakers and a new SACD. I am looking for a new preamp and have started to narrow it down but am still shopping. I have a nice Crown D-150A that is running like a charm. I am using a Carver C-4000T preamp that sounds awful nice but I thought I would try a new piece as this is really a critical stage in my opinion.

I have heard the Rotel 1550 and thought it sounded pretty nice. Next up are the Parasound Halo P3 and the NAD 165BE. I do need to stay in that range under 1K.

Things I have read, but not heard, soundstage seems to end at the speaker-sides and does not carry outward into the room. I have heard this for both the NAD and the P3. I don't know for sure on this being a real world problem. I heard the NAD had very distinct placement of all elements of the sound; vocals, drums, keyboards etc. This was from a dealer, not a Magazine review. He also said the P3 was very nice in the same respect but leaned more toward the NAD.

I am not trying to grab this thread only to hopefully shed some light given what I have learned as I need the same help. I apologize to the OP if this is a problem. Oh and yes I have looked at Emotiva. They have a new preamp coming out with some nice features next month I believe it is. It will have Bass/Treble controls and some other niceties beyond the USP-1. I have only read what everyone else has, never heard one.

I too believe the preamp is a critical element of the system, and am enjoying looking for the right one. This thread could be helpful in that end. :thmbsp:
 
I agree, there was a "baited barb" in his posting. It's too bad that some people can't be objective...

Best Regards,
TerryO

you are best to reread the thread

I am the one being objective

it's to bad som efolks can't follow a thread :smoke:
 
you are best to reread the thread

I am the one being objective

it's to bad som efolks can't follow a thread :smoke:


I actually went back and re-read the entire thread and feel that you were making not only a "barbed" remark, but were actually "trolling." Everything in this thread that you've written, has only led me to believe that my initial impression was not only correct, but somewhat understated.

I think I can follow a thread where the participants use correct grammar, spelling and clear logic. That may be part of the problem I have trying to make sense of what you're saying. The other problem is that while some have made an effort to explain their position from a technical standpoint, you haven't really done anything but be "disagreeable."

Best Regards,
TerryO
 
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I actually went back and re-read the entire thread and feel that you were making not only a "barbed" remark, but were actually "trolling." Everything in this thread that you've written, has only led me to believe that my initial impression was not only correct, but somewhat understated.

I think I can follow a thread where the participants use correct grammar, spelling and clear logic. That may be part of the problem I have trying to make sense of what you're saying. The other problem is that while some have made an effort to explain their position from a technical standpoint, you haven't really done anything but be "disagreeable."

Best Regards,
TerryO

My interpretation of your rude responses to me is that you agree that a preamp adds something to sound. That is fine but then answer me what is it, don't pop in and insult me.
These are the two rudest posts I have ever received here.
Please ignore my posts if you are only going to insult, bait and troll.
 
Interesting thread. I have had Preamp's that were very nice very expensive to me at least 7k plus that to my ears were cold clinical sterile sure they were accurate in reproduction of the notes but were not at all musical to my ears. I like most people if not all people prefer to have my music reproduction colored if you will, I prefer a warmer but yet detailed fast hard hitting sound, you can achieve this by carefully mating speakers amp preamp IC'S and source.

Some people prefer a more brighter sound, which is fine also only you can say what is right for you. I have friends that swear that this or that amp is the **** only to discover in my system to my ears that it only sounds like **** not that it is the ****. I have yet to hear a preamp that sounded the same as another preamp they are all different better or worse depending on your taste.

$$ spent seem to have little to do with how something is going to sound better or worse to my ears. Usally the ony thing you can count as you go up the $$ spent chain is that better quality parts are used and usally more attention to asthetics.



REGARDS JIM
 
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